Hypersonic

I would like to be referred to sections in the Quran which support the position that "Islam based on the Quran" is the root of the various problems brought up in this and other posts.

Issues needing Quranic evidence:

1) unbelief deserving death,

2) islam being inherently opposed to freedom and liberties of people,

3) women being degraded in the quran,

4) islam is inherently unethical

and other unjust commands, action, and rules in the quran.

Pomp

That's an interesting assertion. What makes you say that?

I'll grant that point, with the clarification that it's particular interpretations of Islam, not Islam itself, that's (partially) to blame.

The root cause of what? I thought violence was the problem we were addressing.

notme

In Muslim countries, more often than not, those who ARE educated carry a very deep hatred for the West, and that even if they have been educated in Western universities.

notme

For 13 years Muhammad preached in Mecca but less than 100 people accepted him. Meccans preferred Al Nadir, another storyteller to him. Muhammad’s irreverence to their gods angered them. So he escaped and established himself in Medina . His followers also joined him and he called them immigrants. At first they were poor and used to work as journeymen in palm plantations that belonged to the Jews living in Medina . They used to give some of their food to Muhammad, who often dined on nothing but few dates. After one year in exile, Muhammad found the situation unbearable and he started raiding the merchant caravans that were carrying goods from Damascus to Mecca . One of these raids that took place at Badr was a big success and the Prophet made a good fortune thereof. Then he planned other highway robberies. He distributed the booty, including women, among those who took part in the battles and kept 20% for himself. He even made money by taking the passengers of the Caravan and threatened to kill them if ransom was not paid by their families. He assured his followers that if they fall in the battles, they will get more rewards in Paradise . Gradually his fortunes changed. He was no more a weak neglected preacher but the head of a state who commanded absolute power over his followers. With this change of fortune Muhammad's message also changed.


Quran

9:123

Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.

8:12

I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.

3:85

Whoso desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him; in the next world he shall be among the losers."

2:191

kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out

9:5

Slay the idolaters wherever you find them

2:193

Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah

9:14

Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers


9:29

Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior"

9:30

The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!


9:28

O you who believe! Verily, the Mushrikûn (unbeleivers) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah) after this year, …


14:17

Before him is Hell; and he shall be made to drink boiling water.

3:61

If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge Hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!"


47:4

When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives.

Musing Man

Graeme, if we wre to consider any of the latest human progresses, in the field of your choice, the Islam DESERVES to be bashed.

Read again, NOT the Muslims, the ISLAM.

Most of the peaceful Muslims we hear about have adapted, but not the Islam, which is still represented by a strong nucleus of hardcore "believers of Allah".

Religion, any religion, equals poison in my books. And Islam, which is more than a simple religion, is one of the most obvious examples...

Pomp

Are peaceful Muslims not believers in an 'adapted' Islam?

Rathpig

I encourage everyone to read the Koran - it simply can't "be adapted". Any deviation from the fundamentalist dictates of the Koran is heresy. It is very hard for the Western mind to understand this concept. No individual Muslim exists in their religion. The Muslim is Islam. Islam is the Muslim. The actions of the Muslim is the will of Allah.

The actions of Osama bin Laden are merely following the dictates of his god. What we call "terrorism" is the will of Allah. Trying to equivocate this fact is why the civilized world can't effectively deal with the problem.

No third way exists in Islam. You must either submit or die.

Muslims are the problem because "the Muslim" is inseparable from Islam. Western ideas of "free will" and individual rights of conscience are laughable under Islam. If someone says the Shahada that makes them a terrorist. No other point can be drawn from the study of Islam.

Simply read the words of the Muslims who post here.

They can not condemn Osama bin Laden because to do so would make them heretics to their own beliefs. They can equivacate and misdirect the point, but they can not say, "Osama bin Laden does not do the will of Allah.

The "moderate" Muslim is a myth.

Rathpig

Musing Man

Simply, no.

That's a common mistake most Westerners do, they equal Islam with Muhammedanism. It's not the same thing, at all. See the dictionary, don't take may word for it.

Islam is much more than a religion, it is a concept somewhat similar with Zionism, up to a point. It is about a Muslim nation, an all-encompassing nation, under Allah and his only prophet, Muhammad.

By its own definition, Islam cannot be adapted - everything else should be adapted to it. On the other hand, individual Muslims can and are adapting themselves to the modern world, thus making a huge leap between them and their 15K years old religion. Most of those latter Muslims were not at all ofended by the Danish cartoons, I dare to reckon.

Peace be upon us all

premjan

I think religion is stupid because it forces people to fundamentally change themselves, their behavior, their predilections etc. Whereas all people should really have to do is be a bit more aware, educated etc. so that they don't get in each others' way, screw themselves over in the long run, etc.

notme

What we read here is what I would style: "battered nation syndrome." The West, just like a battered woman says: if only I'd have his coffee ready on time in the morning he wouldn't beat me. If only I'd keep the kids quieter and the house neater, he wouldn't go into these rages. He's really a good man you see, I'm the one who makes him do this, it's really all my fault."

Now elevate this thinking to the international level and you've got a perfect case of co-dependence, enabling and battered nation syndrome. Or in a word - dhimmitude.