Jack the Bodiless

I'd just like to return to this comment:
Ed, you seem to be claiming here that Christian apologists typically resolve Biblical contradictions by a process of "research".

Actually, they mostly use a process called "making stuff up". Then, when another apologist stumbles across the invented claim of the first, he can claim to have found it in his own "research" into the subject.

For instance, I have encountered an apologist whose "research" indicated that the ethically problematic episode in Exodus, where God delayed the escape of Moses and the Jews by "hardening Pharaoh's heart", was a mistranslation of a Hebrew idiom: "the original Hebrew" says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

This claim is false. There is no such ambiguity in the original Hebrew. It was invented by an apologist looking for an excuse, then quoted by another as the result of his "research".

Similarly, as previously noted in this thread, the gospel of Matthew falsely claims Isaiah 7:14 as a prophecy about Jesus. Apologists may argue that this is "midrash", and chastise the skeptic for "inadequate research": but this does not change the FACT that Isaiah 7:14 has nothing to do with Jesus. What "Matthew" did, in ripping verses out of context and applying them to situations which the original author never intended or prophesied, was fradulent: calling it "midrash" doesn't make it any less fradulent. It's essentially what modern fundies do when pretending that the Bible prophesied the WTC attack and so forth.

Evoken

My favorite contradiction is that there are no contradictions in The Bible.

greyline

This sounds like a LOT of fun! Is there somewhere on the site we can do this as an exercise? It might be a good way to demonstrate to bible inerrantists why their patching together of excuses to resolve contraditions is unpersuasive.

Black Leaf

The Skeptics Annotated Bible has an excellent list of contradictions, using the KJV, since some people insist it is the only TRUE translation

It is worthy of note that there are currently 1126 contradictions listed. Could keep you busy.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co...a/by_book.html

Wayne Delia

I'm not a fundy Christian, nor do I play one on TV, but I'd be happy to guess that a fundy Christian would identify any non-Christian holy book as being "errant", based on it being in disagreement with what they consider "inerrant" (their Bible).

WMD

Sposam

I appreciate this discussion. None of these issues should be brushed aside lightly. I do want to address these, but it will take time. I don't get to spend much time online so it might take a while to carefully read all the posts.

I also know that these might be guesses. But since none of us were there, we are all guessing - guessing things contradict or guessing at how they can be resolved. So I know none of these responses will change any minds, but maybe cause us to say, "OK, maybe..."

-Luke 24:33/John 20:24 - where there 11 or 10 disciples present when Jesus appeared?
Well, Luke 24:36 says Jesus appeared while the 2 were still talking about how they met Jesus on the road to Emmaus. As we glance over the passage we might assume this is a 5 minute conversation. Was it? I have talked to friends for hours about movies. Is it AT ALL possible that they are all talking for some extended period of time about the things that have happened? Do we know FOR CERTAIN that Thomas was present for the entire conversation?

-Matthew 28:1-10/John 20:24 - what happens with Mary after the resurrection?
Put the passages in this order and see how it fits together:
Matthew 28:1/John 20:1
John 20:2-9
Matthew 28:5ff
It seems John just gives more detail as to the order of events.

-How did Judas die?
Obviously he hung himself. Obviously his body didn't burst from decay. But can we assume that there wasn't a single wild animal around who may have torn into his body and even pulled it down to the ground? Did it happen? I don't know. It's not impossible.

-2 Kings 24:8/2 Chronicles 36:9 - did Jehoiachin reign 3 months or 3 months and 10 days?
Is this seriously thought to be a contradiction? If it is, I'll be more careful to give my age in years AND in exact days!

-Mark 2:25-26/1 Samuel 21:1-6
It is important to note what Jesus said. He never said David had companions when he talked with the priest. Jesus said David's companions ate the bread David took. In 1 Samuel 21:2, David states that he is on his way to meet up with companions. Jesus didn't say they were with him or ate the bread right away - he just said they ate it at some point.

Once I referred to contradictions as "alleged." I was told that they are proven contradictions. At least these first few don't appear to be so iron clad.

Doctor X

Sposom:

Sorry:

Acts 1: 15-18

Some translate "falling headlong" as "swelling up."

Quod erat demonstrandum.

--J.D.

scaramallion

Bored, so...

But the casual reader of Lk 24:33, one for whom such ideas of Thomas nipping out - perhaps for a pint down at the local pub, after all do we know for certain that Thomas didn't go to the pub for a few cool ones? - are unheard of, would take the text at face value. In other words, that Jesus appeared to the eleven.

On the other hand, if we were to give this casual reader Jn to glance over, they would doubtlessly tell us that no, there was a disciple missing - Thomas, who by no doubt was at this stage singing "Come Low Sweet Chariot" while hanging off a lamppost.

If there is no contradiction, perhaps you would care to tell us how long Jehoiachin reigned for?

I find the fundamental idea underlying this entire thread not to be whether or not the apologist can explain away any "alleged" contradictions, but rather the more subtle point that an omnipotent God wouldn't 'inspire' a book which gave the casual reader, one who has no pre-conceived ideas about the errancy/inerrancy of the Bible, the impression that the Bible contained errors. After all, their salvation could very well hinge on such a first impression - as a few of our members will tell you.

Sposam

I'm still not seeing your point. And for whether the reign was 3 months or 3 months and 10 days - I don't see the problem! One is giving a general time frame, the other a specific one. I can say my son is 2 years old. But I guess that would be a lie as he is now 2 years and three weeks old. If the time is 11:02, is a person wrong who tells you it is 11?? Let's be serious.

The Bible repeatedly talk about faith. Are there passages that take some thought - yes. Goodness, Leviticus and NUmbers aren't geared toward "casual readers."

How "some" translate headlong still doesn't prove anything. Do I know what happened to Judas? No! Does my belief in God hang on resolving the 2 accounts - no! I have heard from so many claiming that people who object to the Bible do not bring any biased to the puzzle. Well, we are looking at the same puzzle pieces. I say, I don't know for sure, but it seems that there is a possible explanation. Others come and assume the whole thing is a scam. Both sides are biased. Just because our limited minds can't wrap around all the details, it doesn't mean the details are false.

Doctor X

Sposam:

The OT does not convey much about faith. Indeed, it has little interest in conversion.

However,

It demonstrates that the story contradicts the hanging.

Nor should it. However, you do have to conceed that contradictions exist in the texts that cannot be resolved. There are many others from details such as this to actual theology.

You do not need an inerrant text to believe what you want. You do have to allow that it is reasonable for others to disagree with you. I am not suggesting that you do not.

Well, either he hung himself or he exploded. Either Junior was born in 4 BCE or he was born in 10 CE. Either Moses or Aaron. The Creation-Flood-Patriarchal Narratives-Exodus-Conquest have been shown not to have happened. Scholars know that the various Passion Narratives do not fit what is historically known--what da Romans did to ya!

THAT is relevant for history. It is also relevant for someone who uses inerrancy to site the texts as an OBJECTIVE standard for something.

For what YOU want to believe/cherish--that is your business. Again, all I can ask is that you understand why others do not believe the way you do.

--J.D.