GakuseiDon

What does that mean, exactly? What do you think Tertullian was referring to? What dwelled in the air?

Elijah

Like Plato's forms for the most part. Idealism They are not meant to be understood as supernatural spiritual entities but metaphysical/idealistic.

GakuseiDon

I'm not aware that Platonism placed any kinds of forms in the air or the clouds. IIUC forms existed outside of the material world altogether. So, what are you saying Tertullian believed dwelled in the air? Ideal forms?

Elijah

If the form is particular to the air like the form of air or something that is associated with it. There is a passage in there where he talks about them having wings to be at multiple places like forms.

GakuseiDon

So, you are saying that Plato's Forms could dwell in the clouds and feel the rain?

Elijah

No of course not, I'm just saying every time you see air don't think just materialistically if the writer seems to be influenced by platonic thought. He speaks about Plato and doesn't put forward any superstitious position or does any serious reordering of his understanding of the cosmos, but instead the same old metaphysical debate.

GakuseiDon

Then, let's go back to Tertullian:

From dwelling in the air, and their [demons'] nearness to the stars, and their commerce with the clouds, they have means of knowing the preparatory processes going on in these upper regions, and thus can give promise of the rains which they already feel.

What did Tertullian believe dwelled in the clouds and could feel the rain?
??? I apologise for my confusion, but what was Tertullian referring to, in your view? You seemed to suggest forms earlier, but I'm unclear how that works. Can you go into greater detail about what you think Tertullian was referring to in the passage above, please?

Yes, but AFAIK Platonism, and its notion of forms, didn't conflict with a supernatural view of the material world.

Elijah

What is your understanding of Platonism then if you don't mind me asking? The platonic view is that the eternal side is constant and the supernatural is that the eternal is changing they aren't compatible in my mind so please explain how you see that they can be.

I believe he is speaking of it metaphysically not supernaturally. Feeling is just exchange of information.

Amaleq13

My thoughts exactly. The difference is I actually have a basis for the statement.

I've already clearly and explicitly laid out my position but you apparently don't want to read it. That you have been asleep the whole time does help explain your inability to offer a substantive response, though.

GakuseiDon

I'm not an expert, so correct me if I'm wrong, but Platonic forms were universal transcendent archetypes that existed beyond our material world. That's why Tertullian IMO can't be talking about forms here.

Yes, I know. But what exactly is he saying, IYO? What did Tertullian believe dwelled in the clouds and could feel the rain?