Palpatine

Using the Bible as evidence in these forums doesn't work too well. Just an observation. :wave:

Asha'man

Archaeological evidence shows pretty clearly that Moses never existed, the Hebrews were never slaves of the Egyptians, and that they never escaped across the desert and conquered the promised land of Canaan. (The story of Moses appears to be set in the 13th century BCE)

Instead, the evidence indicates that the Hebrews evolved slowly out of Canaan natives throughout the 9th thru 7th centuries. Then, around 722 BCE, Assyria came and conquered the northern kingdom of Israel. Babylon came and conquered the southern kingdom of Judah and took Jerusalem around 586 BCE. Even before that, the Jews were surrounded and threatened by numerous powerful kingdoms and empire, all of whom were dangerous. The threatened Jews needed a national identity to survive, needed a justification for claiming ownership of the land they no longer held, needed motivation to build and maintain an army. So, throughout the 7th thru 5th centuries BCE, the Jews began assembling traditional stories that gave them what they wanted and needed. This included creating a fictional history that gave them divine claim to both Israel and Judah.

Many of the OT stories show clear Babylonian influence, indicating that much of the mythology was borrowed from their captors. Many stories exist twice in slightly different forms with slightly different language, showing where both Israel and Judah had different traditions that were collected together. And many stories include anachronisms that clearly show authorship sometime after the 7th century BCE.

So, how could someone in the 5th century BCE object to a story of Moses in the 13th century BCE, especially when that story gives the Jews the hope and reassurance they badly needed?

Asha'man

"Men of God" lie all the time. They do it for power, they do it for money, they do it for sex. Look at the TV evangalists who bring in 80 million dollars a year, and own a dozen Rolls Royces, and perhaps a Learjet or two. Loot at the faith healers who scam people day after day. Look at the crazy cult leaders who have dozens of wives and scores of children. Look at the evangelical preachers who talk to the President every week, advising him on how to corrupt our country.

Ignore their preaching for a moment, and examine their actions.

Half-Life

Apostles did not do anything for love or sex back then. Think about it. When they were about to be executed, they could just say "No! We're lying we're sorry!" This way they wouldn't die. What did they have to gain by dying?

Diogenes the Cynic

What is your evidence that any apostles were executed for their beliefs or that they could have saved themselves by renouncing them?

What is your evidence that any direct follower of Jesus ever believed in a physical resurrection or ever personally claimed to have seen Jesus alive after the crucifixion?

Amaleq13

On the contrary, it has been used quite well as evidence in almost every discussion here. It is probably the best evidence against fundamentalism available.

What doesn't "work" here is using one's faith in the Bible as evidence.

Asha'man

You are confusing the characters within the story for the authors of the story.

Apostles dying for their beliefs is part of the story, just like Samwise accompanying Frodo to Mt. Doom. Every good story includes such witnesses displaying love and devotion to the main character, every author knows it helps sell the story better.

The real authors, to the best of our knowledge, were never executed for their beliefs in Jesus.

Kosh

WERE YOU THERE?

Naphtali Jones

If you are refering to the Apostle Paul, Barnabus, Silas, Mark, etc... they didn't actually see anything of the kind. Paul only had a vision of the "Risen Lord" who knows how long after the event supposedly took place. The others were motivated on pure hearsay.

~Nap

rlogan

This isn't even particularly impressive, despite being mostly legend to begin with.

Jim Jones got over 900 to commit suicide. What did they have to gain?

By the time Jones got people to do this, he was basically a raving lunatic, basing his "mission" on a pseudo-marxist/drug-distorted elixer.