Johnny Skeptic

What about Deism?

WishboneDawn

This thread has some interesting information and potential for discussion. Please don't mess that up with outrageous comments.

Diogenes the Cynic

I'm going to ask both Malachi and Haran to stay on topic. Any more gratuitous, generalized sniping about Christianity and/or atheism will be split off and moved to ~Elsewhere~. Criticism of Pagels is fine but please confine it to critiques of her actual methods or conclusions.

DtC, Moderator, BC&H

Johnny Skeptic

Indeed, if people wish to criticize Pagels, then let them critique her methods. Pagels is not nearly as easy on Christianity as Malachi151supposes. Scholars on both sides are well aware of this. Mudslinging would get Pagels nowhere, and she is well-aware of that.

Gamera

What does Pagel's thesis go to? The fact that there were contending "Christianities" (which is the standard model nowadays) doesn't really undermine the historicity of any particular account, in my opinion.

Clivedurdle

But it does undermine historicity!

The idea of a one true version that somehow survived amongst many heresies and got taken up is a propaganda story.

What if you start with myth and variations - Perfect Madonna and Perfect Child loving each other is also a classic mythological motif - and one set of these myths gets power?

I will repeat again - an historical jesus is not necesary to explain ALL of this! And if anyone insists on an HJ - which one - mystic, cynic, rabbi, guerilla, NT son of god....

A Jesus as a character in a play - like Hamlet - makes sense, based on pre - existing myths.

Why do the earliest churches show Jesus and a fish? Why might that be?



What needs doing is biblicists like Pagels need the mythical case presented clearly and succinctly. They are in a similar position to people pre Darwin. The dam has not yet broken on this issue, but there is actually nothing holding it up! The emperor has no clothes!

Gamera

I fail to see your logic. Modern historians mostly accept that what we call history is the narrative contructed by contending interests at any given time. There is no pure historical narrative that we ever have access to. We don't doubt the historicity of the Peleponesian war just because it was the vortex of hotly disputed propagandists on either side, trying to capture the narrative.

In this the historical account of Jesus and his movement seem like par for the course.

Clivedurdle

But that is the whole point! What historical account? Fiction and morality tales at least fifty years after the alleged fact, a guy called Paul who admits he learnt it in visions, other writings - one - Revelation - looking like a Jewish text xianised!

And the story?

A godman
A perfect mother child relationship
All the hero motifs possible
Earliest archaelogy using mythological motifs - the fish.....
Some pre existing cynic stuff
the biggy - love your neighbour - in the books of Moses!

Malachi151

I'm serious, I can't stand Pagels and her kind. She is like the lesbians who think its an great accomplishment to become the priest of their congregation.

Why? To try and expand the scope of Christianity to new markets? To try and make it more appealing to more people? To try and change it from the intolerant, bigotted nonsense that it is into something more acceptable to modern society?

These are the worst possible people. These people are worse than Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell.

If all Christians were like Robertson and Fallwell the religion would quickly die, but unfortunately, Christianity today is a multi-headed hydra that is growing more new heads each day, and people like Pagels are the ones causing more heads to grow.

Instead of using these facts to undermine Christianity, she uses them to expand it.

Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following:

http://www.religionandpluralism.org/ANC_ArticleList.htm

"On Tuesday, February 11, the Religion & Culture communications initiative hosted an audio news conference entitled President or Preacher?: George W. Bush's Irresponsible Use of Religious Language. Religion & Culture grantees Dr. Elaine Pagels of Princeton University and Rev. C. Welton Gaddy of the Interfaith Alliance criticized President George W. Bush's consistent and reckless use of religious language, saying that such language is divisive and destructive to the healthy debate essential to the democratic process. Both theologians detailed how the President has used religious language to stifle political debate on key domestic and foreign policy issues, damage the separation between religion and government and undermine religious pluralism in the United States."

Johnny: Pagels has flatly indicated on many occasions that Biblical inerrancy is a fraud. Consider the following:

http://www.answeringinfidels.com/ind...ask=view&id=42

"Eloquent and rhetorically potent, Elaine Pagels’ The Gnostic Gospels seeks to explain the origin of Christian orthodoxy in terms of political and social dynamics. The overarching assertion of the book is that, whereas doctrines that would facilitate the move toward institutionalization were labeled 'orthodox' by the early Christian church, beliefs that could potentially hinder this institutionalization (i.e. Gnostic teachings) were labeled “heretical.” Pagels attempts to rescue these Gnostic teachings from their ancient grave, and she criticizes many of the central claims of orthodox Christianity as being politically motivated."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-..._encoding=UTF8

"Elaine Pagels has done it again, turning out another highly readable and eloquent exposition of religious truth. Although she focuses on the Gospel of Thomas rather less than her title would suggest, she nevertheless gets to the heart of the matter: the rich diversity of Christian origins and modes of belief. I found the description of her attempt to find meaning in religious faith during and after her son's death revealing and compelling. Elaine Pagels remains an inspiration to those of us who reject the dogma and bigotry of 'comic-book Christianity' (my phrase), but still seek to rely on our religious tradition for guidance, solace, and strength. She is for me a leading member of a group of writers including John Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg, and Kathleen Norris who make it possible for thinking people to reclaim their religious heritage. Like Borg and Norris in particular, her books are highly accessible and aimed at the general reader."

As far as I know, Elaine Pagels is a liberal Christian. Liberal Christians are much less of a threat to American society than fundamentalist Christians are. Pagels has surely caused some fundamentalist Christians to become liberal Christians, and some liberal Christians to become skeptics. Malachi, if she is a liberal Christian, would you expect her to try to destroy Christianity?