Clivedurdle

It looks like we need to take the issues slowly here, and sift carefully what we have - and Arnaldo this is not pedantry.

I also have a strong pentecostal background that included loads of Bible study of Paul's letters, but my conclusions have only been vague misgivings of the littering in these works of various Lord's, Jesi and Christs in varying combinations.

A base work with a huge amount of interpolation makes sense and definitely needs further work.

If this is correct the issues with the various Lords may be further evidence of editorial tampering. Someone more able to keep these juggling balls in the air can work out the patterns.

And this is very important for Earl. A Jewish Paul with added Christ followed by the Gospels I think strengthens Doherty.

Clivedurdle

Cannot the plagiarism software available in Universities highlight different authors in texts and their probabilities?

andrewcriddle

AT Hanson in Jesus Christ in the Old Testament has an interesting and controversial analysis of what Paul is saying.

IIUC Hanson would deny that Paul is identifying Jesus with YHWH/KURIOS. However Paul is claiming that OT prophecies in which God is given the title YHWH/KURIOS have their fulfillment in Jesus. IE Paul does not interpret YHWH/KURIOS in the OT to always or mostly mean or refer to Jesus. The reference to Jesus is found primarily in the use of YHWH/KURIOS in OT passages that Paul regards as prophetic.

Andrew Criddle

dog-on

Mormons believe that Jesus is the YHWH of the OT, from what I understand.

Loomis

The first break I mentioned is that Paul claimed Jesus had to die and return to life in order to become the Lord of Isaiah 45:23 LXX. He was treating Isaiah 45:23 LXX like it was a prophecy; that one day someone will establish a lordship by dying and returning to life.

That idea fits like a glove when you read the LXX, but if Paul’s readers understood that the Lord in Isaiah 45:23 was the same divinity as Theos then it would seem absurd.

There is a similar problem in Romans 10:9.
See?

If the Lord (in Joel 2:32 and Isaiah 45:23) was Jesus (and Paul said it was), then who was the God that raised him from the dead?

Loomis

Can you offer an example where he does not associate the Lord LXX with Jesus?

And what about the opposite?

Can you think of any verse that associates Jesus with one of the theos/ el/ elohims?

It looks to me like he always associates Jesus with the Lord LXX.

Loomis

Look at the way the author of Hebrews treated this issue. He associated Jesus with Joshua. He may or may not have known Yahweh’s proper name, but he appears to know that they are separate characters and that Yahweh’s name is sacred and unspeakable.

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ is faithful as a son over His house.

Zechariah 3:8 LXX
Thus saith the Lord Almighty; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and take heed to my charges, then shalt thou judge my house...

See what I mean?

Q: How come Paul didn't describe Jesus and 'the Lord' like that?

A: Because he thought they were the same character.

andrewcriddle

I agree that Paul does not associate Jesus with theos/ el/ elohims.

However we have verses where Paul uses Lord in OT quotations/allusions where I don't think Jesus is involved

Romans 11:2-3 We have also cases where Paul quotes the OT eg Isaiah 49:8 in 2 Corinthians 6:1-2 Where the OT speaker is YHWH/KURIOS but I think Paul regards the speaker as simply being God.

IE Paul does not indiscriminately relate OT YHWH/KURIOS to Jesus; he is more selective/discriminating than that.

(In my earlier post I said that Paul does not interpret YHWH/KURIOS in the OT to always or mostly mean or refer to Jesus. On reflection I'm not sure what the statistics would be and hence mostly may have been the wrong word)

Andrew Criddle

Loomis

Okay. Yep. I see what you mean. You answered my question and I think you’re right.

So what was his rule of thumb?

Has anyone ever attributed this to interpolations or multiple authors? If so, then what were their arguments?

The best reconciliation I can think of right now is that Paul didn’t care about the context and was just indiscriminately making shit up.

andrewcriddle

As I previously suggested, I think Paul is looking for OT prophecies of Christ so he concentrates on passages (like Joel 2:32) which speak of what God is going to do. When such passages about what is going to happen use YHWH/KURIOS then Paul is liable to interpret them as prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. OT passages that do not have this future reference are less likely to be seen as referring to Christ.

Andrew Criddle