Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rhutchin · 02-19-2009, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

There has been, from what I have read (granted, not extensive), no observation of a mutation, or other biological process, leading to a different animal.

Then it's time you did some more reading.

http://talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
http://talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html

The cited articles refer to speciation. You can have 100 different species of fruit flies but you still have a fruit fly.

Different species are not different animals.

rhutchin · 02-19-2009, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

By definition, "Christians" are those who follow Christ and adhere to His teachings.

OK, but an awful lot of people disagree greatly with you about what those teachings actually were. An awful lot of people feel quite certain that his teachings had little or nothing in common with, for example, modern evangelicalism.

Christians will tell you that Christ's teachings are found in the Bible.

rhutchin · 02-19-2009, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowy Man

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

The Big Bang is a hypothesis about the beginning of the universe. It is based on the observation of events today and extrapolated back. It is not based on the observation of actual events and I would not call it observational science. Maybe it is. If so, fine.

It is of course an observational science. Cosmology is the observation of the universe. Astronomers use instrumentation to make measurements of the light coming from outer space.

I think what you are trying to point out is that it isn't an *experimental* science. We don't have the opportunity to observe multiple incarnations of the universe. We have the one, and we can't repeat the events of the past.

So, it is more like archaeology, in that we need to try to develop a theoretical framework, based upon our understanding of the results of the experiments that produced our current Physics, within which we can place our current observations to create a coherent vision of what the universe may have been doing over its history.

It is certainly possible to do so and this is what cosmologists, and astronomers in general, are attempting to do.

OK. As you say, "...we need to try to develop a theoretical framework, based upon our understanding of the results of the experiments that produced our current Physics, within which we can place our current observations to create a coherent vision of..." It is the repeatable, empirical experiments that underly all good science. Without standards developed through those experiments, we would not confidently apply standards to observational activities. To the extent that the observational activities do not have standards to use for analysis, we get a lot of speculation and conclusions that depend heavily on assumptions of standards.

rhutchin · 02-19-2009, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wooster

And with this post you have shown me you live in lala-land.

Then again, maybe it is you who live in lala-land. Would you know it if you did?

Doug Shaver · 02-20-2009, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Different species are not different animals.

Fine. How much difference is needed to make a different animal?

Are different genuses different animals? How about different families? Orders? Classes?

You admit that modifications happen. At what point would the modifications, if they continued to accumulate, produce a different animal? Can you answer that? I don't think so, but I'm willing to be surprised.

Doug Shaver · 02-20-2009, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

By definition, "Christians" are those who follow Christ and adhere to His teachings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

OK, but an awful lot of people disagree greatly with you about what those teachings actually were. An awful lot of people feel quite certain that his teachings had little or nothing in common with, for example, modern evangelicalism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Christians will tell you that Christ's teachings are found in the Bible.

You either missed the point or are evading it. Of course everyone agrees that his teachings are in the Bible. What they do not agree on is how to interpret them.

What you are claiming, in essence, is that nobody is a real Christian unless they interpret them the way you interpret them.

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