Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 11-16-2005, 12:27 AM

I look forward to reading readers' replies.

Gawdawful · 11-16-2005, 12:54 AM

What contemporary non-biblical evidence says Jesus existed at all?

Johnny Skeptic · 11-16-2005, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawdawful

What contemporary non-biblical evidence says Jesus existed at all?

If I do not assume that Jesus existed for the sake of argument, I wouldn't be able to make any argument at all about him. Similarly, if I do not assume that God exists, all that I would have to debate with Christians is creation and evolution. What I am hoping for is for some Christians to make some posts in this thread.

andrewcriddle · 11-16-2005, 11:56 AM

IF one regards the TF as mostly authentic (eg if Meier is right about what Josephus originally wrote) then this would amount to non-Biblical evidence that Jesus performed what were regarded as miracles.

(The TF does not explicitly mention healing but if Jesus was a wonder worker at all, then this presumably involved healing.)

Obviously if one believes that the TF is unauthentic then this argument doesn't work.

Andrew Criddle

motorhead · 11-16-2005, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

IF one regards the TF as mostly authentic (eg if Meier is right about what Josephus originally wrote) then this would amount to non-Biblical evidence that Jesus performed what were regarded as miracles.

(The TF does not explicitly mention healing but if Jesus was a wonder worker at all, then this presumably involved healing.)

Obviously if one believes that the TF is unauthentic then this argument doesn't work.

Andrew Criddle

I think the only evidence is Josephus, even after you boil out the Christian additions to his statement about Jesus. However, I think he only mentions that Jesus did "startling deeds" or something like that. He doesn't mention exactly what those startling deeds were.

Hannibal_ · 11-16-2005, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motorhead

I think the only evidence is Josephus, even after you boil out the Christian additions to his statement about Jesus. However, I think he only mentions that Jesus did "startling deeds" or something like that. He doesn't mention exactly what those startling deeds were.

Are you referring to the Testimonium? If so, I wouldn't expect anything to surive a skeptical 'boiling'......

So what part of Josephus are you referring to? There's only one other putative jesus reference, and that's only in regards to another person...

Oh, and josephus is not a contemporary account anyway.... He wasn't even born until some time after jesus would have lived...

andrewcriddle · 11-16-2005, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hannibal_

Oh, and josephus is not a contemporary account anyway.... He wasn't even born until some time after jesus would have lived...

IF the Testimonium is mostly geniune then it is in all probability non-Biblical evidence which is what the OP wanted. (eg if the TF is by Josephus it is unlikely that it is based directly or indirectly on the canonical Gospels. )

Andrew Criddle

TedM · 11-17-2005, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

I look forward to reading readers' replies.

These aren't in the Bible:

Quadratus: Quadratus was one of the first of the Christian apologists. He is said to have presented his apology to Hadrian while the emperor was in Athens attending the celebration of the Eleusinian mysteries. The period of the emperor Hadrian, during which Quadratus is said to have made his apology, was from 117 CE to 138 CE.

Here is the reference from Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. IV.3.

Quote:

1 After Trajan had reigned for nineteen and a half years Aelius Adrian became his successor in the empire. To him Quadratus addressed a discourse containing an apology for our religion, because certain wicked men had attempted to trouble the Christians. The work is still in the hands of a great many of the brethren, as also in our own, and furnishes clear proofs of the man's understanding and of his apostolic orthodox. 2 He himself reveals the early date at which he lived in the following words: "But the works of our Saviour were always present, for they were genuine:-those that were healed, and those that were raised from the dead, who were seen not only when they were healed and when they were raised, but were also always present; and not merely while the Saviour was on earth, but also after his death, they were alive for quite a while, so that some of them lived even to our day." Such then was Quadratus.

Polycarp lived from roughly the year 69 to the year 155, when he was martyred. He is alleged to have known multiple apostles, and to have been a direct disciple of the apostle John. Irenaeus writes (via Eusebius again):

Quote:

For when I was a boy, I saw thee in lower Asia with Polycarp, moving in splendor in the royal court, and endeavoring to gain his approbation. I remember the events of that time more clearly than those of recent years. For what boys learn, growing with their mind, becomes joined with it; so that I am able to describe the very place in which the blessed Polycarp sat as he discoursed, and his goings out and his comings in, and the manner of his life, and his physical appearance, and his discourses to the people, and the accounts which he gave of his intercourse with John and with the others who had seen the Lord. And as he remembered their words, and what he heard from them concerning the Lord, and concerning his miracles and his teaching, having received them from eyewitnesses of the 'Word of life,' Polycarp related all things in harmony with the Scriptures." (cited in Eusebius, Church History, 5:20:5-6)

Make of it what you will...

ted

Hannibal_ · 11-17-2005, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

IF the Testimonium is mostly geniune then it is in all probability non-Biblical evidence which is what the OP wanted. (eg if the TF is by Josephus it is unlikely that it is based directly or indirectly on the canonical Gospels. )

Andrew Criddle

Even if it were genuine, it would still not be a contemporary account.

SaintCog · 11-17-2005, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Polycarp lived from roughly the year 69 to the year 155, when he was martyred. He is alleged to have known multiple apostles, and to have been a direct disciple of the apostle John.

I've always been troubled by this notion that the apostle John (assuming that there was an historical John) lived long enough for Polycarp to be one of his disciples. Putting aside the fact that this stretches well beyond the average lifespan of people 2,000 years ago, there is some indication that he was martyred before the writing of Mark's gospel.

Mark 10:35-40 - 35 James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came forward to him and said to him, "Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you." 36 And he said to them, "What is it you want me to do for you?" 37 And they said to him, "Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory." 38 But Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" 39 They replied, "We are able." Then Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you will drink; and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized; 40 but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared."

Without going into a lengthy exegesis, it seems pretty clear that Mark has Jesus foretelling James and John's martyrdoms, i.e. their deaths were known (by Mark at least) prior to 70 CE. Now unless there is some other apostle named John that I don't know about, this pretty much precludes the possibility that Polycarp could have known John personally, let alone learned anything from him.

11-16-2005, 12:27 AM	#1
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	What non-Biblical evidence says that Jesus healed people? I look forward to reading readers' replies.

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11-16-2005, 12:54 AM	#2
Gawdawful Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: In a cardboard box under the viaduct. Posts: 2,107	What contemporary non-biblical evidence says Jesus existed at all?

11-16-2005, 11:56 AM	#4
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	IF one regards the TF as mostly authentic (eg if Meier is right about what Josephus originally wrote) then this would amount to non-Biblical evidence that Jesus performed what were regarded as miracles. (The TF does not explicitly mention healing but if Jesus was a wonder worker at all, then this presumably involved healing.) Obviously if one believes that the TF is unauthentic then this argument doesn't work. Andrew Criddle

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