Gamera

What the text says is clear, and I leave it to your epistomology to worry about whether Jesus said it. The text clearly says at numerous places that the law needed to be "fulfilled" meaning completed (hence it wasn't perfect) and that it has in essence been overturned for Christians. Though the text allows for anybody to keep themselves under law -- with disastrous results.

James 2:10 - For whoever keeps
the whole law but fails in one point
has become guilty of all of it.

Apikorus

Observant Jews prefer the rabbis' understanding of Judaism to that of James.

What the text says is indeed clear:

For verily I say unto you, until heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, until all be fulfilled. (Matt 5:18)

Gamera

I see no particular ambiguity here given the context of the gospel's escatology. The Law will remain in effect until the the end of the age, or the Great Day of the Lord, or whatever locution one uses for the judgement day.

This in no way contradicts the plain language of the NT books which say that those who accept the gospel are not under Law. Avoiding the application of the Law and its dire consequences doesn't mean that the Law goes away, just that it doesn't apply to a category of people. And by the way, the Law never purported to apply to gentiles. So the whole idea that the eternality of the Law implies it must apply to everyone makes no sense on its face.

But in any case I think you and I are refering to different verses. I was refering to Matthew 5:17, often quoted by noah on this thread as "evidence" that Jesus didn't purport to overturn the law (when I think it shows just the opposite)

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Apikorus

But is "destroy" an appropriate English translation for kataluo in context? I claim no expertise in Greek, but it is interesting to note that Young's literal translation has "throw down" and Green's literal has "annul" in place of the KJV's "destroy." Many scholars are of the opinion that Jesus' intent here was merely to arrogate a proper understanding of the Law, and in no way overturn it.

Julian

Destroy is a good translation. The κατα is just there for emphasis for the basic verb λυω which can mean a number of things, including destroy, loosen, untie, break down, throw down and so on. It could be used about destroying a building or untying someone's sandals. Destroy is reasonable as is any of the other translations I listed since the gist is that something is being undone.

Julian

Apikorus

So Jesus didn't come to untie the law, as it were, but rather to exemplify it. Is that possibly a fair interpretation of what the text is saying?

Julian

That's how I read it, although I would not use exemplify but 'show that it is still in force' or something like that... I wouldn't take my word for it here, though, I am no expert on this issue. I can just help with the Greek.

Julian

Gamera

I think these distinctions are interesting but they don't go to the core issue, and that is the status of the law in NT literature, including the gospels. Clearly, whatever nuance one gives to kataluo, it's clear from this passage and numerous other passages that Jesus is asserting that the law as was currently interpreted (as a source of righteousness) fallls short.

This is particularly clear in the context of the structure of Matthew 5, which is "You have heard X about the Law, but I say . . ." Whereupon Jesus gives a higher, more spiritually oriented command. Or better put, intent oriented. Thus, Jesus says the law says not to kill, but he says don't even think angry thoughts about people. The law says an eye for an eye, but he says love your enemy.

My point is that the sense is so clear here that the intent simply doesn't turn on the lexical range of words like kataluo. Indeed, I think this is generally true of the gospels and the NT. Most of the language is painfully plain in meaning and it takes contorted arguments to get around the plain meaning.

Gamera

See below. Matthew 5 gives instance after instance where he "unties" the law. And of course, it's strange people don't notice that Jesus even "invents" laws. When asked what the greatest or foremost commandment is, he states, as you know, that there are two: to love God above all else and to love your neighbor as yourself. He claims these embody the law. I beleive him, but the fact is these aren't commandments at all and can't be found in the Hebrew bible.

Which is all the more fascinating because his reinterpretation of the law involves a condition, not a action. The law is a series of dos and don'ts relating to action. Jesus boils these down to an emotional state: love. And of course you cannot command love. It's an emotion that you either have or don't have. You can't conjure it up in response to a sense of duty.

So Jesus' reinterpretation is utterly and completely radical. Even if he said or did nothing else, he would have basically done away with the law with this reinterpretion.

Matthew 22: "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." 41

(by the way, Paul is very aware of this radical teaching: Galatians 5:14 - For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." )

Toto

Huh?

Deuteronomy 6
1 "These then are the commandments, the statutes and decrees which the LORD, your God, has ordered that you be taught to observe in the land into which you are crossing for conquest,

. . .

4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone!
5 Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength.


Leviticus 19:
18 Take no revenge and cherish no grudge against your fellow countrymen. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.