Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 04-22-2005, 05:17 AM

Quote:

he was Jewish

Let us test this out.

Mother Mary - Jewish - sounds OK because Judaism is matrilineal. So where does the role of David fit?

But what is the doctrine about Jesus? Is he half Holy Spirit genetics half Mary's genes? OK, Jewish.

Is he entirely of God and Mary is a receptacle? Therefore not Jewish.

The conception of Mary is immaculate - so is she really Jewish?

Anat · 04-22-2005, 06:39 AM

AFAIU 'immaculate conception' isn't about the biology of how Mary was conceived but about her not inheriting 'original sin' from Adam and Eve. Since Jews do not believe in this doctrine in the first place then whether or not mary inherited 'original sin' is irrelevant to her Jewish status.

Dharma · 04-22-2005, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptical

I think this site is correct, Jesus certainly did not fulfill the traditional Jewish expectations of the Messiah, assuming of course that there even was a wide spread belief in a Messiah, which is questionable.

However, to play devil's advocate just a bit, couldn't the christian argue that Jesus was adopted by Joseph? Would that count in traditional Jewish lineage terms?

Also, I have read some sources that indicate that to the extent there was a messianic expectation, there were diverse groups such as the Essenes who had non-traditional messianic expectations, more of a prophet like Ezekial or even a "son of God", but they may not have used that term. I'm going from memory, so that may not be completely accurate although I'm pretty sure about the non-traditional expectations of certain groups.

But, the site is undoubtedly correct in saying that from the perspective of the Hebrew bible, Jesus' only uncontroverted connection to traditional messianic expectations was that he was Jewish. The other traditions about Jesus are much closer to Pagan traditions and legends than they are to anything in the Hebrew bible.

It's impossible on any straight forward reading of the Hebrew bible to "find" Jesus, it's just not there.

I've often thought that one of the prime reasons that early christians didn't simply break with the Jewish tradition completely is that the ancients derided anything "new", so they felt compelled to tie their movement to the ancient Jewish traditions. That and the early Jesus movement in Jeruselem may have had much more "Jewish" beliefs than later christians, but that is somewhat speculative based on the scant evidence we have.

Truly fascinating, again this notion of the "virgin birth" is due to faulty translations by some Christians of certain passages in the Tenakh
http://www.messiahtruth.com/is714a.html

and the Christians were a small fry sun cult and the Jesus followers were separately known as the Nazarenes. I agree with you that the Christians saw an opportunity in adopting Jesus as the "human sacrifice" for their sun cult (similar to the Aztecs human sacrifice for the sun) and then associating themselves with the more fundamentalist aspects of a more older tradition such as Judaism allowed this cult to grow.

Dharma · 04-22-2005, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Let us test this out.

Mother Mary - Jewish - sounds OK because Judaism is matrilineal. So where does the role of David fit?

But what is the doctrine about Jesus? Is he half Holy Spirit genetics half Mary's genes? OK, Jewish.

Is he entirely of God and Mary is a receptacle? Therefore not Jewish.

The conception of Mary is immaculate - so is she really Jewish?

Mother Mary IS NOT JEWISH...Mary means maiden or young married lady in Latin. This concept was then imposed on Miriam who was the mother of Jesus.

Miriam means rebellious or bitter and Mary means young maiden and is perhaps a more correct translation of the Hebrew "Almah" which also means young woman but has sometimes been mistakenly translated to mean "virgin". Hmm, this gets more and more interesting. Somebody somewhere screwed up big time with the New Testament, it seems someone put Christianity and the Nazarenes together in a hodge podge manner.

Dharma · 04-22-2005, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

Dharma, this site has the biblical support for the Jewish concept of Messiah and why Jesus failed the criteria.

Ah, but you forget, some Persian King was also called the Messiah, so then this criteria is not hard and fast.

Boomeister · 04-22-2005, 09:46 AM

Many Jewish people were considered possible messiahs. But none of them fulfilled the expectations before they died and therefore were eliminated from speculation.
A Persian King was called Messiah? by the Jews? Was he Jewish? Did he fulfill enough of the expectations for people to wonder if he might be the one?

Boomeister

Wallener · 04-22-2005, 09:51 AM

Cyrus was referred to as a small-m messiah, not as the Big-M Messiah.

Dharma · 04-22-2005, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallener

Cyrus was referred to as a small-m messiah, not as the Big-M Messiah.

can you give me a reference as to where this "small m" vs. "Big M." messiah difference is made?

Even then, this would mean that the term "messiah" has been applied to non-Jews. I have a feeling that the Tenach, and most religious scripture even of the Abrahamic tradition, is generally more universal than the priests who interpret them make it out to be. Priests and many times their erroneous interpretations tend to be a problem for every religion.

sharon45 · 04-22-2005, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chokmah

That depends on whether you believe there was a real Jew named Jesus. That is one piece of prophesy.

Belief has nothing to do with it. Did it happen for real or not? There isn't any real evidence acceptable for a historic figure besides myths. Does not mean there wasn't one, but as with respect to the NT, that jesus sure couldn't have existed.

Besides, the Messiah being Jewish is not exactly something for the need of a prophecy to be associated with it. Now, if it was for a gentile to be predicted as the expected Messiah, that would obviously be something of a valued notation for actual prophecy.

Also jesus being considered a deity should not even be counted as Jewish anyway. God is not of a religion, god is not of a people, so neither should jesus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chokmah

Maybe you didn't see this part of my post:

Yes, I saw it and the same thing applies. The reason why there is nothing about a second coming for the real Jewish Messiah is because he has to fullfill all of the requirements in his first and only coming. There isn't any need for a second coming.

Visionary7 · 04-22-2005, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharon45

Belief has nothing to do with it.

Belief has everything to do with it.

Quote:

Also jesus being considered a deity should not even be counted as Jewish anyway. God is not of a religion, god is not of a people, so neither should jesus.Yes, I saw it and the same thing applies. The reason why there is nothing about a second coming for the real Jewish Messiah is because he has to fullfill all of the requirements in his first and only coming. There isn't any need for a second coming.

2 Peter 3.4 They will say 'Where is the second coming he promised?

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04-22-2005, 06:39 AM	#22
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	AFAIU 'immaculate conception' isn't about the biology of how Mary was conceived but about her not inheriting 'original sin' from Adam and Eve. Since Jews do not believe in this doctrine in the first place then whether or not mary inherited 'original sin' is irrelevant to her Jewish status.

04-22-2005, 09:46 AM	#26
Boomeister Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: The Big State in the South Posts: 448	Many Jewish people were considered possible messiahs. But none of them fulfilled the expectations before they died and therefore were eliminated from speculation. A Persian King was called Messiah? by the Jews? Was he Jewish? Did he fulfill enough of the expectations for people to wonder if he might be the one? Boomeister

04-22-2005, 09:51 AM	#27
Wallener Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver Posts: 1,043	Cyrus was referred to as a small-m messiah, not as the Big-M Messiah.

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