Clouseau

Addendum.

The way to the 'Tree of Life' is barred. That does not of itself imply a hell, but there is certainly a punitive element, due to disobedience, and a removal from the divine presence. In the contexts of immortality, which imv is fundamental to the Bible, and of punishment, a cutting off from the source of all goodness could be interpreted as a hell. That is indeed what many modern teachers have thought hell to be (though I think there may be additional factors).

The Evil One

I never doubted that there was. It's 1300 BCE that I require convincing on.

Evidence for belief in divine Punishment in general != evidence for a belief in Hell in particular.

Quite apart from the dating issues.

Clouseau

Ask someone who claims it, then.

The Evil One

Erm....

Joan of Bark

Clouseau, do orthodox Jews support your claim? From what I know of them, they never speak of hell in any form.

Clouseau

What claim is that?

Then perhaps they need to be asked for their reason.

Cheerful Charlie

The gospels mention hell most specifically. So hell was with Christianity from the gospels on, starting with the 1st century CE. Paul does not say much about Hell that I can recall.

Hell was not a Christian idea. Romans and Greeks had hades for example. And the idea goes back to earlier Zoroastrian ideas. Egyptians early on had a well developed idea of a heaven, and afterlife and a hell. If you read the early old testament, you find that there is no hint of an after life, no heaven, no hell. Soul (ru'ah) such as God breathed into Adam ( Ru'ah means breathe), but it was a life force that dissipated at death and did not survive in to an after life.

Not until the times of Kings and Chronicles did ideas of an afterlife start to show up in the NT. The witch of Endor calls up the spirit of the dead Saul.

The idea shows up tentively in the Psalms and Proverbs. But Eccelsiastes assumes when we are dead, we are dead and gone, no soul, no heaven, no hell.

During the time of Jesus, Jewish Sadducces denied an afterlife, heaven or hell as pagan accretions added illicitly to Judaism. I suspect a clear idea of an after life and a heaven and hell made Christianity popular as it promised heaven preferentially to the down trodden and poor. A big improvement of Greek hades where all were treated the same,a grey, colorless world, or Judaism's sceptiscism about such things as an afterlife and confused claims about that. Roman religions had human souls becoming disemboddied spirits that often stayed on Earth, the lares and penitates, the ancestor spirits Roman's prayed and sacrificed to for help, or to ask the bad ones to at least stay away. Not much sign of a heaven or hell here.

Christianity's early rivals in this regard would have been the mystery religions with their heavens and hells and afterlives obviously influence by Osirianism, and the Egyptian Osirian religion with the very popular Isis which was a main rival to Christianity until it was stamped out by the Christian emperors in the 4th century.

Cheerful Charlie

Clouseau

And before. See my post.

'Such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.' 2 Cor 11:13-15 NIV

If he wrote Hebrews, he wrote this:

'If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.' Heb 10:26-27 NIV

Then Jude:

'They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.' Jude 7 NIV

And Peter:

'God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell [Tartaros, the deepest abyss of Hades].' 2 Peter 2:4 NIV

And James:

'It [the tongue] corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell [Gehenna].' James 3:6 NIV

'Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.' Deut 18:9-11 NIV

See my post.

Chili

Heaven is opposite to hell and did not become known until the gate of heaven was opened by Peter, I think it was, so that worthy Catholics would be entertained by the ambition of heretics trying to get in on their own.

Heaven and hell are the same in that they both are eternal while they are opposite in their relationship with the divine. Those in heaven are both Lord and God while those in hell just worship another God.

burning flames

another "anti eternal torment" christian site

http://www.savioroftheworld.net/greek.htm


so is this all wishful thinking?

what did early speakers of greek who were christians think?

do we know?

is it true that words for torment and punishment in the bible have a purifying or healing connotation?



more links

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...am/eternal.htm

http://www.ccel.us/buis.app3.html