Vinnie

And are we granting Tatian wrote a harmony of the four Gpospals about 170 C.E.? Cause as I said:

"JM an HJer, made extensive use of Gospel harmonies. His pupul Tatian writes a Gospel harmony himself known as the diatessaron."

Vinnie

GakuseiDon

Yes, this is the claim of Docetism. This was a heresy made popular by Marcion, about 20 years before Tatian.

They believed that the flesh was sinful, so Christ did not have a flesh and blood body. Instead, he had a body like angels who have been made human temporarily. It is explained in a book that Tertullian addresses to the heresy: http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...tullian15.html

So they believed in a historical Jesus, who taught and lived as per the Gospels, but they believed he wasn't born of a woman. That is why Tatian, after he'd published his Gospel harmonisation, tried to later edit out the geneologies.

GakuseiDon

I think Vork believes that Tatian became a HJer long enough to write the harmony. Apparently it seems that Tatian's lessons with Justin Martyr took after all!

Toto

Is it so clear that the Docetists, who believed that Jesus was an incorporeal spirit who only seemed human, are HJ'ers?

When this issue came up before, I quoted a passage from Freke and Gandy's Jesus Mysteries in which they claim the Docetists as fellow mythicists, on the grounds that talking about an incorporeal Jesus who walked through walls was in effect speaking of a mythical spiritual entity. This was rejected because F&G are not scholarly enough, but not for any other reason.

Doherty's take on Docetism is at p. 307 of the book The Jesus Puzzle. He asks if it is reasonable to assume that everyone accepted Jesus of Nazareth as a real human for almost a century, and then suddenly some raise the objection that Jesus was not human after all. He thinks it is more likely that Christ started off as a spiritual entity who had undergone suffering in the heavenly realm at the hands of demon spirits. By the time of Ignatius and Cerinthus, the idea came into focus that there had been a historical flesh and blood Jesus who had suffered under Pontius Pilate; the Docetists were those who did not go along with this development, and preferred to describe Jesus as incorporeal.

F&G think that the ancients were not stupid, and knew that there were no ghosts who could walk through walls, and that therefore the Docetist story is obviously meant as an allegory and is not evidence that the Docetists thought that Jesus would have appeared as human if they could take a time machine back a century.

If Doherty is right, the existence of a HJ might not have been a major issue for Tatian. He and others of his time might have been actually indifferent as to whether Jesus existed on earth or in some heavenly sphere, or was just a soul-transforming legend as exemplified in the stories he speaks of. It only became an important issue later because of its theological implications.

Vinnie

Well, either way I don't have the time nor desire to get into this one. Tatian falls into the HJ camp as far as I am concerned.

Vinnie

GakuseiDon

Yes, if they thought that Jesus was a person who walked the Earth, and did most of the things He did in the Gospels.

I have that book. What chapter is it in? I'll have a look.

Vinnie

Thjey ,must have been smarter than Americans as a recent barna poll suggests that 60% stil laccept the Bible stories as true.

I think F&G are way too optimistic. The ancients were smart, they didn't believe in the supernatural? I would think they did, only more so.

Vinnie

Vorkosigan

I have already dealt with this. Anytime you can prove...
WHAT WAS IN TATIAN'S MIND WHEN HE WROTE THE HARMONY
....I will be happy to listen.

Now deal with the reams of positive evidence about Tatian's beliefs I turned up in the previous thread. Tatian specifically denies that God could ever become flesh (one among many examples)

...as I duly noted in the previous thread, and already discussed. <sigh>

Correct. I go by what Tatian said, a weird methodology that. Imagine trying to figure out someone's position by using their own words. Man, that is just so strange. Who would ever do anything like that?

Vorkosigan

Layman

I know that Marcion believed in such a historical person. He might not like the term man, but he believed was real, moved around, taught and did miracles on earth. That is not the JM. The JM says Jesus was never on earth. Marcion and the like said Jesus was on earth but he was not really human. Thus he believes in a HJ, just not the same kind of HJ as orthodox Christians.

Vorkosigan

Here is what I wrote earlier that you have now been ignoring for three pages.

(1) Don, I am saying that evidence does not permit us to make the positive conclusion that Tatian was a following of Jesus Christ when he wrote the Address to the Greeks, for such a person is never mentioned in the Address. If want to show that in 160 Tatian was a Christer, point out the direct evidence.

Additionally, a fragment of Tatian cited elsewhere says:
"Tatian, who maintaining the imaginary flesh of Christ, pronounces all sexual connection impure, who was also the very violent heresiarch of the Encratites, employs an argument of this sort: "If any one sows to the flesh, of the flesh he shall reap corruption;" but he sows to the flesh who is joined to a woman; therefore he who takes a wife and sows in the flesh, of the flesh he shall reap corruption.--HIERON.: Com. in Ep. ad Gal.

However, this is apparently from the later period of Tatian's "apostasy."

(2) To defend his Logos religion, which is outlined at great length, against Greek philosophy. Here are some of his descriptions of this belief:

In chapter IV of Address to the Greeks, Tatian writes God alone is to be feared,--He who is not visible to human eyes, nor comes within the compass of human art. Only when I am commanded to deny Him, will I not obey, but will rather die than show myself false and ungrateful. Our God did not begin to be in time: He alone is without beginning, and He Himself is the beginning of all things. God is a Spirit, not pervading matter, but the Maker of material spirits, and of the forms that are in matter; He is invisible, impalpable, being Himself the Father of both sensible and invisible things. Him we know from His creation, and apprehend His invisible power by His works. I refuse to adore that workman ship which He has made for our sakes. The sun and moon were made for us: how, then, can I adore my own servants? How can I speak of stocks and stones as gods? For the Spirit that pervades matter is inferior to the more divine spirit; and this, even when assimilated to the soul, is not to be honoured equally with the perfect God. Nor even ought the ineffable God to be presented with gifts; for He who is in want of nothing is not to be misrepresented by us as though He were indigent.But I will set forth our views more distinctly.

It is difficult to square his comment....

"God is a Spirit, not pervading matter,"

with any HJ. You will note that there is not a breath of Jesus in here AT ALL. But he continues through four chapters (IV-VII) in this vein, talking of the Resurrection --without mentioning Jesus. Don, that's not really silence that is amenable to either HJ or MJ explanation. Tatian is obviously an adherent of some Logos philosophy. Furthermore, Tatian in this discourse affirms that there is only God ALONE:

"....will restore the substance that is visible to Him alone to its pristine condition."

"For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary ground (npostasis) of all being, inasmuch as no creature was yet in existence, was alone" [at the beginning of all things]

"not having the nature of good, which again is with God alone," [if you read Tatian as an Christer, how can god alone be good?]

There's not even the slightest hint of a Trinity in Tatian.

Read it carefully. He speaks of

Resurrection without Jesus
Women with naming any NT women
God and Logos without Jesus
Demons without mentioning that Jesus exorcised them
Healings by several Greek figures, without mentioning any by Jesus (a whole chapter on healing, no Jesus)
Impregnations by gods without mentioning Mary
The soul rising to god without Jesus' intercession
The soul getting eternal life without knowledge of Jesus
Says Christian doctrine is opposed to dissensions, without apologizing for Judas or Paul vs. Jerusalem or then-current heretics.
Attempts to date age of religion by Moses, not by Jesus or Abraham or any other.

Again he says
"The perfect God is without flesh; but man is flesh."

Please, if you can, reconcile that with Jesus being the God Made Flesh. When Tatian says his god was born in the form of a man -- note that "in the form of" is he talking about Christian god? He specifically rejects that Jesus became flesh. The comparisons that he uses are from the Greek myths, of gods who temporarily took on the likeness of mortals.

You will also note that he rejected meat eating in this missive:

"You slaughter animals for the purpose of eating their flesh, and you
purchase men to supply a cannibal banquet for the soul"

and after Justin died this was also his position. That may indicate a continuity of belief.

But here's more on God's flesh according to Tatian:

"One of you asserts that God is body, but I assert that He is without body; that the world is indestructible, but I say that it is to be destroyed;"

If God is without body, what is Jesus?

(3) Tatian does give expression to his beliefs! The address is thick with them. His beliefs just have nothing to do with what you claim he believes, an MJ or an HJ. Rather, Tatian has some kind of Logos religion that is based on the Hebrew scriptures, and many include a son, but there isn't enough there to determine what position the son holds or what form he takes. Still, it is clear from how he describes his religion that he is not a Christian of Vers 2.0 with the Crucified Christ Plug-in.

_______

I should add, with respect to the comments about the gospels, that use of them DOES NOT indicate what Tatian's belief might be. The writing of a harmony does not mean that Tatian believes the stories. Nor does the writing of a harmony in 170 indicate anything about Tatian's beliefs a decade before. This is elementary logic, folks.

Vorkosigan