andrewcriddle

On the specific claim about December 25, I am increasingly coming to suspect that no pagan gods whatsoever had any special festival whatever on December 25 until after 300 CE.

I am aware that many, perhaps most, scholars would disagree but can anyone give solid evidence that I am wrong ?

Andrew Criddle

Malachi151

The issue of who wrote the scrolls, what the community was, etc., is all beside the point IMO, what is important here is, are there texts that pre-figure Jesus Christ and is so in what way, and is it important?

Riverwind

The Dead Sea Scrolls have nothing to do with Jesus. They have some messianic material, so depending upon your views you may or may not call those texts prefiguring. I don't think there is anyone (short of fruitcakes) who takes Allegro's book seriously.

As to Qumran being a pottery factory, I don't see it. Can someone provide information on other "pottery factory" sites as large as Qumran (or even provide evidence of "pottery factories" at all)? I think there are many better explanations for their findings. Cave 4 (among a few others) is VERY close to Qumran, so I can't imagine how Qumran wouldn't have played some role in (or at least known about) the scrolls having been deposited there. With the close proximity and visibility of those caves, I can't imagine that the community there didn't use them for something. Further, how are all the ink wells found at Qumran, far more than would be necessary for simple book-keeping at a "pottery factory", to be explained?

spin

Brief answer: no.

The scrolls deal with Jewish notions of the messiah, not christian. One even finds the notion of the two messiahs, priestly and secular ("the messiah of Aaron and of Israel", CD 20:1), as seen in Zech 4:14 (and garbled in Zech 6:13).


spin

spin

Despite what anyone says, Allegro was a good scholar. When he was the only scholar in the group who published his share of the scrolls -- the first volume of cave 4 texts --, the best the others could do was to publish a criticism of his work's shortcomings. Today, both are read together and the combined efforts to find errors in Allegro's work did in fact find differences of opinion, which went their way sometimes and his way at others. This was groundbreaking material and they were going where no soul had gone before, so errors were to be expected, but early publication was better than withholding the text from the world through one's own negligence. Allegro also gave the world the copper scroll years before the official publication. If the others had been as forthcoming, a lot of the idiocy involving the scrolls could have been prevented.

Well, perhaps you might note the several pottery kilns on the site when one would have been sufficient for local production. Perhaps ypu might also note the large number of ceramic items in loc 114 and loc 85/87. This latter is the so-called pantry filled with hundreds of undecorated vessels. Given the population nalyses of Qumran especially by Joseph Patrich, there were only a few dozen people at Qumran at any one time, it should be obvious to anyone with eyes that the hundreds of vessels in loc 85/87 were not a pantry, but a store-room of pottery.

Check Yizhar Hirschfeld, "Early Roman Manor Houses in Judea and the Site of Khirbet Qumran", JNEA, 63:161-189.

Why?

Once the documents were placed in those nearby caves they were sealed and their presence could go undetected. In fact, it took the Ta'amireh Bedouin a few years of concerted efforts to find cave 4.

Ummm, there weren't that many ink wells, some of them are actually unprovenanced and they are from various periods in Qumran's occupation.


spin

Riverwind

I didn't say he wasn't a good scholar (early on), I just said that no one (aside from nutcases) takes his "mushroom book" seriously.

I totally agree. I still hate that scholars and libraries monopolize archaeological finds. They are a part of everyone's history, and as such should be public domain from the point of discovery. So, with respect to this, he was right. However, whether he wrote is book out of spite or not (as I have a hard time believing that he was really serious), he went pretty stupid in the end.

I have heard them referred to simply as "ovens", but I would need to read a more detailed report to know exactly why they are considered "pottery kilns".

I have no problem with it being a "store-room of pottery", but one must remember that they were located next to the Dead Sea, so the pottery would have had many uses in such a desolate area. I'm assume you are aware of the enormous store-rooms at Masada?

[quote]Check Yizhar Hirschfeld, "Early Roman Manor Houses in Judea and the Site of Khirbet Qumran", JNEA, 63:161-189.

Thanks for the reference. I am seriously interested to know about other "pottery factories" because Qumran does not in any way make me think of a such a thing.

Interesting. This has escaped my reading. Do you have a reference for the fact that Cave 4 and the others were "sealed"? The story I have always read of the finding simply says a Bedouin tossed a rock up into one of the caves and heard the pottery shatter (given this was Cave 1, quite some distance away), which seems to indicated that it at least was not sealed.

I still have a hard time believing that Cave 4, the next plateau over from Qumran would not have been explored by those living in the area and discovered caves exploited.

I'll have to look for my reference. I had read that there were many writings tables and ink wells discovered at Qumran.

Finally, there is also the issue of the water resevoirs and aqueduct. First, the very large water resevoirs seem overkill for pottery making. Smashed pottery that you mentioned is also found in abundance at miqvehs where unclean pottery was ritually shattered. With respect to the aqueduct, similar aqueducts can be found in many such places (and even makes me wonder if it were actually a fortress of some sort, especially considering the fortified tower).

DCHindley

I could not find anything on the internet for 4Q *Therapeia* other than Charlesworth's book on it, and Naveh's criticism of it as mere scribal doodling to loosen up and get used to a new pen and writing material.

Even though some swear that Charlesworth disavowed his position that the fragment was important to both medicine and HJ studies, the book is still in print under his name.

I think that other cryptic texts show that what might appear to be senseless doodlings could also have some sort of secret meaning. As far as I know, though, the other known examples pf DSS cryptic texts did not employ very sophisticated encryption schemes. Has anyone subsequently tried to make anything of the "senseless" parts of the text?

What is the numeric designation of 4Q Therapeia? My reference materials are all in boxes at my new home, and I am at the old one for the weekend.

Dave

spin

He didn't stop being a good scholar to inspire your "early on". He just lost his livelihood.

I disagree. He made money.

Kilns, "artist's ovens". It boils down to the same thing. The apron of of the step cistern 48/49 was over two big kilns. There were two north of loc 71. Two in loc 100. Check out the descriptions in the catalog. The first two went out of service fairly early, because they were covered, but there is a problem dating when that happened.

Yup. What uses would specific vessels have had that would make them general as you seem to imply?

From the early descriptions. The archaeological workers had worked at the site for a few seasons before the cave was found. There were a few small holes on the cliff face but nothing to suggest caves. The openings to the caves were covered. Allow for weathering and that suggests totally sealed.

The scrolls were hidden. There would be no point in leaving the cliff-face caves open, would there?

The writing tables are a joke. Both anachronistic (tables weren't used for centuries) and for contortionists (think about sitting at one). Besides, they were dished.

Actually there was not that much water, given the fact that the area received runoff water at best a few times a year, so they had to catch as much water as possible.

I don't recall talking about any smashed pottery. The wares in loc 114 were whole if I remember correctly. The damages to those in loc 85/87 were as they lay in piles.

The fortress theory has been contemplated and generally abandoned. The defences were too flimsy and there were no traces of weapons or at least arrow heads. However, as part of the Hasmonean defensive network it would have been eminently useful as a watchtower by the sea, but the site's usage was probably mixed and varied. The low flat tanks in loc 121, suggest a commercial use for something like perfume. Glass has been found at Qumran.


spin

Rick Sumner

To my understanding, the text contains words in alphabetical order. Hence the "senseless"ness.

4Q341

Regards,
Rick Sumner

spin

4Q341

1 LB(PS)CGDHW[..]+YKL ??
2 SXRH )... ??
3 TYRQWS[..]) BY[..]Q ??
4 $RXSY MGNS MLKYH MNYS ?? ?Magnus? Malkiyah ??
5 MXTW$ MLQYH MPYB$T ?? Malqiyah Mephibosheth
6 ...LGWS BNYBN BSRY GDY ?? ?? ?? Gaddi
7 DLWY HLQWS HRQNWS WNY Z ?? ?? Hyrcanus ??
8 ZWHLZLP ??
9 ZKRY)L Zekeriel
a YTR)YTY$YL) ??
b Y+RYSYSY ??
c (QYL) ?Aquila?
d (LY (DPY ?? ??
margin MRY)L QP Mariel ??


spin