Common_Cents

This will deal in the hypotheticals for all of those who believe that Jesus was a fraud and that Paul is the best PR man in history.


If Jesus was a fraud and for this we will assume that he was wouldn't it have been easier for the apostles to say that Jesus rose spritually not bodily? Surely they would have known that Jesus was a fraud so they knew that the other side had the body of Christ all they had to say was that Jesus never bodily rose cancel the threat of being exposed. They didn't. They stuck to an painfully easy to disprove statement that Jesus rose body and spirit. Of course the body was never produced so lets continue to the other hypothetical..


If Jesus was a fraud and the body was stolen by his followers why did they martyr themselves knowingly for this lie? This would entail all of his apostles not only dying painful deaths but indeed suffering greatly for something they knew to be a lie. Were they and the many other who claimed to see Jesus after the resurrection dropping acid or under mass delusion for the rest of their lives?


If Jesus was a fraud then how did the Old Testament predict a fraud so well? Isaiah 7:14a
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel."

Isaiah 53:7b
"He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth."

Isaiah 53:9a
"And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth."

Matthew 27:57-60
" 57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus disciple: 58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered. 59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed."

Psalm 22:1a
"MY God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?"

Matthew 27:46
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Psalm 22:8
" 7 ...they shake the head, saying, 8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him."

Matthew 27:41-43
" 41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, 42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. 43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God."

This goes on and on now maybe they were lucky but if they were just throwing it out there it takes alot of guts to put yourself on the line.

Jesus if he was a fraud was the best thought out and executed fraud in the history of the world. For he didn't overtake the world militarily and indoctrinate his first generation. No his first generation of followers cropped out of persecution and hatred. They didn't join because their parents told them. They didn't join because it was the safe and popular thing to do. They joined because they believed. If this is a fraud all imposters and conmen everywhere should tip their hats.

Rhaedas

Are you assuming the existence of a person named Jesus, and just calling fraud the son of god/resurection part? You say at the beginning "and that Paul is the best PR man in history" and I took that to mean Paul making the whole thing up, thereby not needing an actual grave to empty, followers to honestly believe, etc.

My opinion - it's still a toss up for me, myth vs. real person turned legend. Just thought you might clarify the role Paul placed in your hypothetical.

Common_Cents

If Jesus wasn't even real then this isn't a discussion. But sure we can do a hypothetical here..Let's say Jesus isn't real. Why was he ever created? Did Peter, John, Luke, Paul etc etc all the early believers sit around and say "Hey i don't have anyone beating me, mocking me, stoning me, hunting me down and generally wanting me dead let's create a religion out of thin air based on a figment of our imagination!" It is my experience in my own life that i lie to improve a situation. I have never lied to knowingly make my situation worse. Now also for Jesus to have never existed the Romans, Jews, and the jewish historian Josephus were all duped, stupid, in on the scam, or all of the above. Now if that is acceptable and probable to you great. I am glad that is sufficent for you. If not then propose a different hypothesis. I am open to hear them.


As to Paul i was merely quoting what a man once told me. Paul merely worked in my theories as an evangelist for Christ. But of course his is a interesting story as well. He was a big persecuetor of Christ and then turned on a dime to devote his life and eventually die for Christ. He said Christ appeared to him. Now i don't really know of any other reason why Paul would change so drastically unless he lied which what would be the point? To change from praised jew to despised christian amongst the very people he used to torture. It would be strange to lie in that situation.

Hyndis

I'm certain that there was a fellow named Jesus who lived in the city of Nazareth and who happened to be a carpenter. These things are not very unusual things at all, as that was a rather popular name and trade back then.

However, thats a far cry from him being god or a son of god or whatnot. Maybe he was just a good magician/illusionist, and his reputation sort of got out of control with all of the hype? Every storey teller embellishes their story somewhat, and much like the children's game of telephone, what you end up with often has no resemblence with what you started with.

NeoApostate

This is the same argument I heard preached and/or used as apologetics when I was a regular at church - Jesus must be real because otherwise the apostles wouldn't have suffered and been martyred for a cause that wasn't true.

Problem is, it fails to take into account that people can fanatically believe in things that aren't true, and can even willingly die for such things. Using the same argument, Mohammed MUST be true because otherwise Muslims wouldn't have fought wars for a false prophet, and modern day suicide bombers wouldn't kill themselves.

Going hypothetically as you did, let's say the Jesus of the gospel and the events recorded in all basically did happen, and Jesus did teach that he would bodily resurrect... and then he died and didn't. I could still see the disciples going into a period of cognitive dissonance, and then to cure that digging themselves psychologically deeper into a delusion because their mind wouldn't want to believe that their religion and livestyle was false. After a while, their mind would see events completely differently than reality, and by the time they were getting martyred they would believe with 100% assurance that they had seen him rise from the grave. This kind of reaction to the dissonance is actually rather common from what I understand.

So it proves nothing. But then, I don't understand the need for apologetics and proving Jesus when you're supposed to believe on faith and the wisdom of the world is foolishness, etc.

DaMan121

Funny you should say that since the first gospels said exactly that. They never said that his literal body came back to life, this was added later..

Viti

We have detailed and intricate stories of King Arthur, all of them mythical, based on a simple tribal warrior most likely, and they are only 500 years old. I see no reason a myth about a man named Jesus couldn't have sprung up similarly. Humans are storytellers, it's just part of our nature.

WCH

One problem with your argument is that you presume that the apostles did, in fact, die as martyrs as tradition says they did. A skeptic would likely point out that the only reason you think they did is because the propeganda says so -- if it's lieing about who Jesus was, why wouldn't it lie about how they died, too?

Additionally, that Jesus fulfills the prophesies is highly disputed. Just look around these boards for discussions on them; Jesus really didn't fulfill very much, and most of the stuff that Matthew and others say he did doesn't even apply to him.

Steven Carr

Why was it 'painfully easy to disprove'?

I wonder why JW's stuck to the painfully easy to disprove idea that the world would end in 1914. No wonder there are no moew Jehovah's Witnesses.


Because they weren't martyred?

How come Christians keep repeating this fraud - that the apostles were martyred?

DaMan121

Exactly. Elivis' death is painfully easy to proove, yet so many people believe they have seen him.