maryhelena

I suppose everything can boil down to being in some sense political - in that the political involves how we live in a social environment. But to stop there - it's all politics - seems, to me, to shortchange ourselves. We are not one dimensional beings. Indeed, the raw elements of our existence do need to be attended to. But bread on the table, although necessary, does not feed the 'soul'; it does not feed our need for the other non-tangible aspects of life; love, loyalty, meaning and purpose. Its these 'spiritual' elements that provide us with more than mere existence - we need to flourish intellectually and emotionally - not just widen our girth from the dinner table.

And that's were notions of there being something more to existence, something more than just being physically alive, arise. Jewish culture, from which the JC story finds its roots, it's core, its belonging, resolved around finding meaning in history. History interpreted as 'salvation history'. And that is really what the JC story is about. 'Salvation' - something that provides existence with meaning. Yes, of course, one can debate what on earth 'salvation' was, is, or could be. Each to his own I would imagine...

Searching for early christian origins, attempting to understand what generated the JC story - a story that has stood the ravages of time - is of more than historical, or political, interest. 2000 years later, people's lives are entwined with that JC story. For a lot of people that is just OK. For more rationally minded folk - it's not OK. It's not OK because the world we inhabit mentally, our mental world, will influence how we live in the physical world. So, if we want to see changes, if we want to live in a more humane social and political environment - we have to first clean house - our mental, intellectual, house. Cleaning up our intellectual 'house' requires that we go back 2000 years ago and unravel that JC story. It won't do to simply ignore it hoping it will just waste away. Ideas, and that is all the JC story is - an idea - don't go easily to their netherland. They will kick and scream for the glory days of their youth. Metaphorically of course

aa5874

So, you have PRE-JUDGED the outcome???

Well, maryhelena, you are the Prophetic 'Historian'.

maryhelena

igsfly:igsfly:igsfly:

aa - the challenge is to 'get' Josephus - come on man - do you really think a perfect crime is possible??

aa5874

Come on, maryhelena you have already PROPHESIED the outcome.

maryhelena

You mean to say you think I've 'got' Josephus????

steve_bnk

My Jesus? Get a grip dude. I believe it is likely there was an historical figure on whom thne tales began.


The anaolgy is not hard to see. One tecnique of historical supposition is by analogy to somethinmg we know. Sorry if that is uipsetting for you.

Mormonism was based in Christianity but that is not the point. In much less than 100 years Mormonism went from the fabriction of an individual to a movement of believers with tales of trhe supertnaturtal.

Human nature has not changed all that much in 2000 years.

Horatio Parker

And these needs are exploited by entitled individuals like Josephus. Or Josiah.

No disagreement here.

Can the church afford to untie these fundamental spiritual needs from politics?

When pushes the cobwebs of historicity out of the way, the fundamental spiritual questions remain and with even more force and vitality. But with the barriers go the (easy) answers...

aa5874

Is it NOT YOUR PERSONAL BELIEF that the historical Jesus is likely??? It is YOUR Jesus because you cannot show that any author of antiquity documented a Jesus that satisfies the historical Jesus you BELIEVE was likely.

The Jesus of the NT was a Son of a Ghost, God the Creator that Transfigured and walked on water. See Matthew 1, Luke 1, gJohn 1 and gMark 6 and 9.

Now show me the source of antiquity that documented the historical Jesus YOU BELIEVE existed.

Please fill in the blank space if you can.

1. .............................................


In the NT, Jesus was the Son of a Ghost and Joseph Smith was the son of Joseph Smith SR.

Tell us of the analogy that you CAN SEE. I want to SEE your analogy so fill in the blank if you see anything.

1................................................. ........

Well, Marcion PRESENTED a PHANTOM as the Son of God, WITHOUT BIRTH and FLESH, and in a short time Marcionism was extremely popular.

Examine "First Apology" People of antiquity did BELIEVE Phantoms did exist even WITHOUT BIRTH and FLESH.

Jesus too was a PHANTOM--IT WALKED on water.

No way!!! This is the 21st century. Human beings have come to the realization that the Jesus story was just a MYTH FABLE.

Perhaps you don't want to change.

I do not accept the NT as historically credible.

Even 1800 years ago, Justin Martyr made KNOWN to the Emperor of Rome, the Senate and people of the Roman Empire that the Jesus story is NOTHING different to MYTH FABLES of the Greeks and Romans. See First Apology.

Now, please IDENTIFY a credible source of antiquity that shows YOUR JESUS was historical.

steve_bnk

Human nature

Crop circles, alien abductions, ghosts, continued religion...

In any case if your chronic response is a repeated rant and you can not engage a simple analogy then seeing your posts is pointles. Adios.

maryhelena

It's probably just me - but I do have trouble going the route of attributing negative ulterior motives to either Josephus or the gospel writers. People do sincerely belief certain stuff and what they do, because of that stuff, to be acceptable within that context. Our context is different today. We want the plain 'truth' without any imaginative dressing.
More likely that politics would turn on the church than the church deciding to go for 'divorce'...

Indeed, once the easy answers are seen to be inadequate - time for some serious soul searching. Perhaps an identity crisis or two - and hopefully some real intellectual advancement.