Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Naked Ape · 09-07-2004, 12:13 PM

In this thread, the discussion started off with the confession that an infidel answered a direct question from a nephew honestly and that answer was at odds with the worldview espoused by the theistic parent and guardian of said child.

It was suggested that giving an honest answer to a direct question from a child that is at odds with the custodial parents views constitutes messing with these kids. In response to my query at the end of the linked thread :"Can you explain how giving children honest answers to direct questions constitutes messing with them?" I recieved the following PM from Madkins007:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madkins007 in a PM

Hi- sorry for the PM (I hate these things, personally), but I am trying to abide by the SL format.

If you want to keep this discussion going, I'll be happy to follow you to another forum, but I am not sure there is enough interest to start it myself.

As far as your most recent post goes ("You said that confusion and uncertainty were bad for young kids, at what age do you feel that confusion and uncertainty become good things?

Can you explain how giving children honest answers to direct questions constitutes messing with them?")

My answer would be that while confusion and uncertainty may never be 'good' for a child, as they mature they will gain the tools and experience to deal with such questions and issues more effectively.

Im my opinion, the 'messing with them' bit is that you are a.) undermining the custodial parent(s), b.) presenting conflicting information without helping them resolve the issues, c.) asking them to accept ANOTHER issue on faith ('this is true even though mommy says otherwise because I say its true'), and so on.

While I don't this is a big a deal as teaching a child that a bogeyman will get them if they don't eat their vegetables, I also do not see what is to be gained in telling young kids such things.

Like I said, you can corner my kids when they are of an age to consider such issues rationally- but it irks me that people would think that teaching a younger kid ANYTHING contrary to the parent's wishes is in any way a good idea.

If the child is at risk from mom's teachings, then call in protective services. If you think mom is being an idiot, talk to mom. You've got other options- none of which involve lying.

Anyway- if you want to do this in another forum, let me know. You have permission to post this response if you wish to get it going.
[Bolding added by Naked Ape.]

I have bolded the portion of Madkins007's reply that I have the biggest issue with. I think that childrens direct questions deserve an honest answer, regardless of what their parents think the correct answer is. (If they wanted to hear their parent's answer, they would have asked them the question, not you.) I think this issue hinges on repsect for the children asking the questions, I think it is important for children to know at least one adult that won't just hand them the parentally approved authoritarian line, but attempts to honestly answer their questions.

What are the opinions here?

Cheers,

Naked Ape

BDS · 09-07-2004, 12:52 PM

It depends on how the "honest answer" is phrased. If an uncle says, "I don't believe there is a God, although reasonable people differ, and your parents disagree with me," I don't see a problem.

Obviously, if the uncle says, "There is no God, and your parents only tell you there is because they are either dillusional or liars," that's disrespectful.

There is, of course quite a bit of nuanced and tricky middle ground.

As far as preaching to and persuading a young child, that's inappropriate. It would be equally inappropriate for an atheist to preach and argue as it would be for a Fundamentalist Christian to do so to the children of an atheist.

ex-preacher · 09-07-2004, 01:37 PM

Suppose that instead of God, the child asks about Santa Claus. I would probably lie or at the very least give an evasive answer. When it comes to matters of religion and children, I think that the parents' wishes should be followed (unless, of course, they put the child in physical danger). One can easily avoid the question without lying. I say this as an atheist married to a conservative Christian who is raising our three kids as such. Our deal: I won't go out of my way to undermine what she's teaching them, but I will never lie if they ask me a direct question.

livius drusus · 09-07-2004, 01:45 PM

Did you receive permission from Madkins before posting his PM?

Hyndis · 09-07-2004, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Anyway- if you want to do this in another forum, let me know. You have permission to post this response if you wish to get it going.

Looks like permission has been given.

livius drusus · 09-07-2004, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyndis

Looks like permission has been given.

Looks like it has. Pardon my intrusion and carry right along, then.

Naked Ape · 09-07-2004, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livius drusus

Did you receive permission from Madkins before posting his PM?

Did you read the quote before posting? Apparently not. Thanks for your permission to continue.

Cheers,

Naked Ape

getalong · 09-07-2004, 02:34 PM

Going directly to

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madkins007

it irks me that people would think that teaching a younger kid ANYTHING contrary to the parent's wishes is in any way a good idea.

I understand the irksome-ness of dealing with kids who have been told something the parents disagree with, but dealing with that kind of thing comes with the territory of being a parent.

There are too many parents out there with too many wishes for me to be able to conform to all of their wishes regarding all of their children. To make matters worse, frequently I don't know what the parents wishes are, they have never expressed a position, or I've never even met the parents. This board tends to think in rather narrow terms of religion/non-religion, but the topics kids bring up can be as broad as whether or not to eat meat, citizenship, or playground ethics. There's just no way to avoid all possible controversial topics unless one chooses not to interact with children at all.

The way the statement is made, it's not an issue of morality or ethics, as far as I can tell. It's an issue of social behavior. If you take the other side of the coin - what do you tell children, then it seems like an ethics question. I think honesty with children is very important, but there are ways of answering indirectly or answering a question with a question than allows you to answer a question without coming into obvious conflict with known parental preferences. (Unknown parental preferences are not up for debate in my mind. There is no use expecting me to read other people's minds.)

getalong

livius drusus · 09-07-2004, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naked Ape

Did you read the quote before posting? Apparently not.

Sigh... Is such knee-jerk snideness really necessary? It was just a question. I apologize for my oversight, but it's not like missing the last sentence of a quote is a personal attack. Neither is checking to be sure the whole quote won't be removed before responding to it.

Quote:

Thanks for your intelligent contribution to this discussion.

Eh... It would have been relatively intelligent, I'm sure, but nothing to write home about. In any case, I shall spare you the trauma of having to treat me in a reasonable manner. Enjoy your thread.

Naked Ape · 09-07-2004, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ex-preacher

Suppose that instead of God, the child asks about Santa Claus. I would probably lie or at the very least give an evasive answer. When it comes to matters of religion and children, I think that the parents' wishes should be followed (unless, of course, they put the child in physical danger). One can easily avoid the question without lying. I say this as an atheist married to a conservative Christian who is raising our three kids as such. Our deal: I won't go out of my way to undermine what she's teaching them, but I will never lie if they ask me a direct question.

I welcome examples that are further afield, the concept that teaching a younger kid ANYTHING contrary to the parent's wishes is a bad thing, that is what I am most interested in.

I am not advocating preaching (or unpreaching) to children, but I am not so sure that honest questions should be evaded. I respect the children at least as much as I respect their parents, sometimes more.

Cheers,

Naked Ape

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09-07-2004, 12:52 PM	#2
BDS Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Eugene, OR, USA Posts: 3,187	It depends on how the "honest answer" is phrased. If an uncle says, "I don't believe there is a God, although reasonable people differ, and your parents disagree with me," I don't see a problem. Obviously, if the uncle says, "There is no God, and your parents only tell you there is because they are either dillusional or liars," that's disrespectful. There is, of course quite a bit of nuanced and tricky middle ground. As far as preaching to and persuading a young child, that's inappropriate. It would be equally inappropriate for an atheist to preach and argue as it would be for a Fundamentalist Christian to do so to the children of an atheist.

09-07-2004, 01:37 PM	#3
ex-preacher Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: University of Arkansas Posts: 1,033	Suppose that instead of God, the child asks about Santa Claus. I would probably lie or at the very least give an evasive answer. When it comes to matters of religion and children, I think that the parents' wishes should be followed (unless, of course, they put the child in physical danger). One can easily avoid the question without lying. I say this as an atheist married to a conservative Christian who is raising our three kids as such. Our deal: I won't go out of my way to undermine what she's teaching them, but I will never lie if they ask me a direct question.

09-07-2004, 01:45 PM	#4
livius drusus Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Selva Oscura Posts: 4,120	Did you receive permission from Madkins before posting his PM?

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