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andrewcriddle · 08-27-2011, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

One problem is that Origen says that:

Quote:

Luke does not mention the place Jesus came from, but on the other hand he tells us what we do not learn from the others, that immediately after the baptism, as He was coming up, heaven was opened to Him, and the Holy Spirit descended on Him in bodily form like a dove.

but this doesn't agree with our texts of Luke where there is no explicit mention of Jesus coming up out of the water or use of "immediately" or of Heaven being opened to him. These come from Matthew and/or Mark. It seems unlikely that Origen's texts of Matthew Mark and Luke all differed from those known to us, and it is hard to avoid the feeling that Origen is quoting from memory and getting muddled.

I have managed to resolve this point, but I am unsure how far it helps with the wider issues raised by Jay in the OP.

The Ante-Nicene Fathers translation of Origen's Commentary on John reads

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immediately after the baptism, as He was coming up, heaven was opened to Him

as He was coming up translates Greek ANERChOMENW(i) the reading of Codex Venetus. Codex Venetus is a 14th century copy of the 13th century manuscript Codex Monacensis and its scribe frequently corrected what appeared erroneous readings in the text of Monacensis. (All surviving continuous text manuscripts of the Commentary on John descend directly or indirectly from Codex Monacensis.) Here Monacensis reads PROSERChOMENW(i) as He was coming to/approaching. This is clearly wrong, but the true correction is almost certainly that given by Brooke in his critical edition ie PROSEUChOMENW(i) as He was praying.

IE the true text should be translated:

Quote:

immediately after the baptism, as He was praying, heaven was opened to Him

This is the reading of more recent texts and translations see Commentary on John by Origen. Hence Origen notes the distinctive features in our text of Luke, the descent upon Jesus of the Holy Spirit in bodily form as he was praying.

Andrew Criddle

aa5874 · 08-27-2011, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

..... Hence Origen notes the distinctive features in our text of Luke, the descent upon Jesus of the Holy Spirit in bodily form as he was praying.

Andrew Criddle

What you state makes very little sense. "Like a dove" in gMatthew, gMark and gJohn and "in the bodily shape like a dove" has EXACTLY the same meaning.

Mt 3:16 -

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.... the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him..

Mr 1:10 -

Quote:

the Spirit like a dove descending upon him...

Lu 3:22 -

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... the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him......

Joh 1:32 -

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..... the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

It is most logically obvious that in gMatthew, gMark, and gJohn that the Holy Ghost had the bodily shape LIKE A DOVE and not some other bodily shape.

Or please explain the bodily shape of the DOVE in gMatthew, gMark and gJohn?

Vorkosigan · 08-28-2011, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Hence Origen notes the distinctive features in our text of Luke, the descent upon Jesus of the Holy Spirit in bodily form as he was praying.

Andrew Criddle

Thanks, Andrew. You have relieved me of much anguished rethinking.

stephan huller · 08-29-2011, 05:18 PM

What would this forum do without the dedication and expertise of Andrew Criddle ...

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08-29-2011, 05:18 PM	#64
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	What would this forum do without the dedication and expertise of Andrew Criddle ...

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