Roger Pearse

Perhaps you would post the examples and evidence here?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

There is a standard scam that publishers sometimes use. What they do is produce some book full of rubbishy claims calculated to give wide offence (but only to people whom it isn't politically risky to offend, of course). They circulate these claims widely. Any attempt to contradict this is met with a cynical demand "Have you read the book?" and the insinuation that no-one is allowed to criticise these widely made claims unless they have. Of course they have commercial interest in getting people to buy the book.

Dave, you're in some danger of raising suspicions of this here.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

robto

???

No, I didn't. The first half of my post addressed exactly this part of the quote. Did you read my whole post?

Exactly. That's why the claim "Horus was born on Dec. 25" is misleading right from the start. The claim "Horus was born on the winter solstice" would make a lot more sense - but it would still be misleading, as I discussed in my earlier post.
Which is a good reason to look back at the original sources, and not just wander through them picking out details that happen to agree with some pre-conceived notion.
Good advice, if you're talking about primary sources. I suggest you do some studying yourself.

Toto

I think this was originally a question on evidence for a long history of pagan parallels to the virgin birth.

I doubt that Roger will read the Companion guide - he doesn't do secondary sources. So I will just list a few of the points Acharya makes.

Her bibliography is online here.

First of all, she is dealing in comparative mythology, so a goddess might have sex and give birth, but still be considered a virgin, especially if the impregnation had some magical element to it - because it's all magic. This might seem to make things hard to pin down, but she can at least quote those who thought that there were virgin births parallel to the Biblical virgin birth, including the ancients and her favorite 19th century scholars.

Her favorite example is Neith, as I mentioned above. Neith or Nit was a creatrix goddess who gave birth to the world. Since Neith is identified with Isis and Horus was born of Isis, Horus can be said to have been born of a virgin, or at least a female goddess who became pregnant in a magical and unconventional way.

There is also evidence that Isis and Neith were identified astrologically with Virgo, the Virgin.

Her most interesting source is the entry on "virgin birth" in the New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (or via: amazon.co.uk), which is online starting here. This article is more concerned with Catholic dogma than with tracing the history of the idea, but there is this:

page 212 notes:

Roger Pearse

The virgin birth of a saviour at the end of the world recorded in the Dinkart in Zoroastrian myth seems certainly genuine -- at least, I think that I have seen the original --, and is probably the reason why the name of Zoroaster makes its way into the collections of fictional Sayings of the philosophers predicting the coming of Christ.

There *are* vague parallels for the life of Christ; this has always been known, and the ancients regard it as evidence of the truth of Christianity. But we need to see specific examples (the existence of these is not evidence of connection or derivation, of course).

The obvious question is what sources we have for this. The encyclopedia, bless them, do give an answer; the Philosophumena and Tertullian Ad Nationes book 2 c.7.

Book 5 chapter 3 of Hippolytus, Philosophumena reads:

The Phrygians, however, assert, he says, that he is likewise "a green ear of corn reaped." And after the Phrygians, the Athenians, while initiating people into the Eleusinian rites, likewise display to those who are being admitted to the highest grade at these mysteries, the mighty, and marvellous, and most perfect secret suitable for one initiated into the highest mystic truths: (I allude to) an ear of corn in silence reaped. But this ear of corn is also (considered) among the Athenians to constitute the perfect enormous illumination (that has descended) from the unportrayable one, just as the Hierophant himself (declares); not, indeed, emasculated like Attis, but made a eunuch by means of hemlock, and despising all carnal generation. (Now) by night in Eleusis, beneath a huge fire, (the Celebrant) enacting the great and secret mysteries, vociferates and cries aloud, saying, "August Brimo has brought forth a consecrated son, Brimus; "that is, a potent (mother has been delivered of) a potent child. But revered, he says, is the generation that is spiritual, heavenly, from above, and potent is he that is so born. For the mystery is called "Eleusin" and "Anactorium." "Eleusin," because, he says, we who are spiritual come flowing down from Adam above; for the word "eleusesthai" is, he says, of the same import with the expression "to come." But "Anactorium" is of the same import with the expression "to ascend upwards." This, he says, is what they affirm who have been initiated in the mysteries of the Eleusinians. It is, however, a regulation of law, that those who have been admitted into the lesser should again be initiated into the Great Mysteries. For greater destinies obtain greater portions. But the inferior mysteries, he says, are those of Proserpine below; in regard of which mysteries, and the path which leads thither, which is wide and spacious, and conducts those that are perishing to Proserpine, the poet likewise says:...

This is Hippolytus quoting an unnamed Naassene author describing his heresy. But there is nothing in this implying that Brimo is a virgin, is there?

Tertullian, Ad Nationes ii.7

This does not refer either to Brimo or the Eleusinian mysteries, as far as I can tell. Perhaps the reference is corrupt? (This sort of thing is the main reason why I always feel that it's a waste of time to depend on secondary sources).

As the learned Martin Routh, author of Reliquiae Sacrae said, "You will find it a very good practice always to verify your references, sir."

I find another reference to Brimo in Eusebius, PE ii.

Tertullian does mention the Eleusinian mysteries in Adversus Valentinianos c. 1, although not Brimo.

Clement of Alexandria tells us in his Exhortation to the heathen that Demeter was sometimes named 'Brimo':

Then there are the mysteries of Demeter, and Zeus's wanton embraces of his mother, and the wrath of Demeter; I know not what for the future I shall call her, mother or wife, on which account it is that she is called Brimo, as is said; also the entreaties of Zeus, and the drink of gall, the plucking out of the hearts of sacrifices, and deeds that we dare not name. Such rites the Phrygians perform in honour of Attis and Cybele and the Corybantes. And the story goes, that Zeus, having torn away the orchites of a ram, brought them out and cast them at the breasts of Demeter, paying thus a fraudulent penalty for his violent embrace, pretending to have cut out his own. The symbols of initiation into these rites, when set before you in a vacant hour, I know will excite your laughter, although on account of the exposure by no means inclined to laugh. "I have eaten out of the drum, I have drunk out of the cymbal, I have carried the Cernos, I have slipped into the bedroom." Are not these tokens a disgrace? Are not the mysteries absurdity?

What if I add the rest? Demeter becomes a mother, Core is reared up to womanhood. And, in course of time, he who begot her,-this same Zeus has intercourse with his own daughter Pherephatta,...

I also find this account online copied from the Ecole site:

(3) Asterios of Amaseia (fourth century), in a diatribe against the pagans' barbaric and obscene rituals, asked the following rhetorical questions: "Are not the height and culmination of your religion those Eleusinian Mysteries, whose vanities the people of Attica, and indeed all Greece, gather to celebrate? Is there not in that place a dark underground chamber [katabasion], where the Hierophant meets with the High Priestess alone? Are not the torches then extinguished, and do not the vast multitudes believe it is for their own salvation--what those two do together in the darkness?" (Asterios, in Migne 324)

This doesn't seem to be in the 5 sermons that I have online, tho. Another ref to it is Encom. mart. p. 113B.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

PS: Asterius is in the Patrologia Graeca vol. 40. Sermon 10 is headed Encomium in sanctos martyes, starting at col. 314. Col. 324B is talking about the Eleusinian mysteries and contains the material above.

It's an interesting sermon, and deserves an English rendering, as do others of his sermons.

Toto

A side discussion (Jesus = Sun?) has been split off here.

vid

I'll add a bit on this. Page 135 of S33 is not accessible on Google Books. Guatemalan crucified Horus is on page 185. It refers to book Arcana of Freemasonry, page number not given. You can download it here: http://www.archive.org/details/arcan...maso00churuoft

Maybe there is another reference at page 135?

Their only other source for crucified Horus, S34, is downloadable here: http://www.archive.org/details/egyptianbeliefmo00bonw

As expected, Horus is indeed mentioned on page 157, but no crucifixions anywhere.

Toto

Tim Callahan of the Skeptics Society has a review of Zeitgeist Part I here.

ApostateAbe

That is a heroic review. I should say an excellent review and a heroic publication decision.

Dave31

Ah, Acharya has responded to the Skeptic magazine article by Tim Callahan (Eskeptic, 2/25/09)

Skeptic Mangles ZEITGEIST
(and Religious History)
http://stellarhousepublishing.com/sk...zeitgeist.html

She mops the floor with him.