Malachi151

Its the difference between bad reasoning and delusion....

Plato was little different than many of the IDers today. Yeah, the IDers are stupid and illogical, but they aren't claiming to have learned that ID is true by personally having traveled through the universe to meet the Maker...

PhilosopherJay

Hi Gamera,

Plato never insists that he is right and his interocutors are wrong. At least in the multiple times I've read every dialogue of his, I have never found this to be the case.

We need to separate out the neo-Platonic views of Platonism, developed in 3rd century C.E. and later, from Plato's actual views. We should remember that for eight hundred years, the leaders of the Academy, the men who knew Plato's works best, were all skeptics who refused the idea that any knowledge was certain.

While Plato does endorse and support the existence of an ideal realm in certain dialogues, he seems to oppose this belief in other ones. He recognizes frequently that he is unable to grasp eternal truths, but he suggests that the truth must be something like the entertaining analogies/myths he presents. He always presents his analogies/myths as stories that may or may not be true. The reader is given wide latitude to believe or disbelieve.

Plato does endorse the dialectical method (one on one structured interogation) as the best means of getting at the truth, but he does not seem to endorse any particular truth.

Even when he constructs his ideal "Republic," he tells us that it can only be short-lived and will be overthrown.

I really cannot imagine any writers with more opposite personalities then Plato and Paul.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

spamandham

Apparently, he was then as well. He certainly felt the need to apologize for coming across as nuts in Galatians. There's an interesting subdiscussion going on about Paul in this thread http://iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=183659

Steven Carr

Philosophical speculation about the causes of what exists is one thing, imagining that you saw a REAL man from Macedonia in a vision is another thing.

Mainly because there is really good evidence that dreams and visions are just that. The people in dreams are not real.

Let's put it this way. If the accuser of Ted Haggard said he had seen Haggard do those things in a vision, Haggard would not have whipped out 2 Cor. 12, said visions are real and resigned.

Solo

Paul's a metamorphic state in 2 Cor 12 can now be induced medically.

I hope the brain surgeons will soon discover the brain-localized dysfunction which makes some people metaphor-challenged.

Jiri

Malachi151

That does not mean that this is what happened to Paul. Those experiences don't typically happen while walking down the road, and it doesn't sound at all like such an experience to me, since he supposedly didn't believe in Jesus prior to that, so that would be odd to have such an experience about something you don't believe in, people typically see visions of things they believe in deeply.

Its a construct for a story, plain and simple. Its just a made up lie.

spamandham

Keep in mind that the idea he was walking down a road when he got his visions comes from the author of Acts, not from Paul himself. We don't know that Paul didn't believe in Jesus prior to this vision.

Reading 2 Cor 12, I interpret the 'thorn in Paul's side' to be regular seizures. He is talking about unwanted visions, and making statements like "when I am weak I am strong". IMHO, Paul had regular epileptic episodes (or possibly manic hallucinations according to solo).

The guy sounds like he's certifiably insane and even he feels the need to apologize for his bizzare behavior at times, so I really don't see why anyone would object to the idea he had these hallucinations/siezures/dreams.

Solo

The "thorn in the flesh" that Paul speaks about relates to the depressive side of his illness. I read Paul's profile as a near classic bi-polar with TLD. To begin with, his letters have all emotional coloring, from the generally confident Romans and 1 Thess, to the choleric Galatians, to "the letter of tears" as it has been called, 2 Corinthians. Then of course there is a number of exhibits in the letters in which Paul articulates his bi-polarity in referencing his health:

You know it was because of bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first; and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn me or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Jesus Christ (Gal 4:13-14) (Note here, Paul speaks of "condition", which would be kind of untypical phrasing for epilepsy, a disease that had a name, and whose episodes are typically without protracted effect. Though it is true that violent post-icchtal psychoses do occur, they most often decrease in intensity as time goes on).

When I came to you , brethren, I did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God in lofty words of wisdom. For I decided to know nothing
among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I was with you in much
fear and trembling and my speech and my message were not in lofty words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God (1 Cor 2:1-5)
This is an very important passage in puzzling out Paul's profile. Paul refers to glossolalia, the ceaseless outpouring of incoherent speech, highly typical of excited manics and an important disgnostic clue. The trembling or dyskinesia also fall into the picture of a florid manic, though it may be allied to anxiety.

And to keep me from being elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. (2 Cor 12:7) The causation expressed in this verse is one of the main reasons for my belief that Paul was manic- depressive. Manics understand the working of the Samsara, the relation between their emotional highs and lows. Paul understands the process of depression that follows the paradisiac high as its natural complement (and it always follows: Jesus fights with the devil after his high, Buddha with the evil Mara; Mohammed runs home to Khadija asking her to hide him from the devil; in the absence of devil in the early Judaism, it is YHWH himself who makes an attempt on Moses). Some readers here protested against my reading of "depression" into the "thorn in flesh". I refered them back to the ancient Greek medicine which had no notion of "mental" illness as such, and even much less so of psychosomatic origins of health problems. If one was feeling ill, it was a "bodily" affair. The reigning medical theory by which all diseases were explained was the theory of humours. Listlessness, lack of appetite/ sex drive, and assorted woes were attributed to the excess of "black bile". The condition was known as melankholia.

Here are some other references to Paul's condition:

I fear when I come again my God may humble me before you. (2 Cor 12:21)

For they say, ‘His letters are weighty and strong but his bodily presence is weak and his speech of no account’ (2 Cor 10:10)

We do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, of the affliction we experienced in Asia, for we were so utterly, unbearably crushed, that we despaired of life itself. Why, we felt we received the sentence of death 2 (Cor 1:8-9) a classic articulation of depression

I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart (Rom 9:1-2) Paul's condition was evidently compicated by anxiety / panic attacks, again quite common among bi-polars with temporal lobe issues.

We wanted to come to you – I, Paul, again and again – but Satan hindered us. (1 Thess 2:18) At least since Job, depression was the work of Satan in Judaism.

For I wrote to you out of much affliction and anguish of heart and with many tears,….(Cor 2:4)

For, if we are beside ourselves, it is for God, if we are in our right mind, it is for you (2 Cor 5:5) as I said, having related his "insane" exterior to the mysterious ways of God, Paul is not concerned with it further.

If I pray in a tongue my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful (1 Cor 14:14) ditto

For even when we came to Macedonia, our bodies had no rest but we were afflicted at every turn – fighting without and fear within (2 Cor 7:5)
Compare with Gospel of Thomas (69): Blessed are they who have been persecuted within themselves. It is they who have truly come to know the Father.

.....yup, strange as it may seem Christianity originated as a community self-help clinic and outreach to manics. One of the mental cases made out of it a religion for everyone. Over time, it conquered the world. But surely that must be God's greatest miracle of all !

Jiri

Amaleq13

When do they "typically" happen?

It seems to me that they have the potential to occur whenever an individual prone to such experiences was thinking about the subject regardless of the location.

Presumably, Paul had been feeling guilty, subconsciously or even consciously, about persecuting Christians and it was his growing unease with his activities that ultimately resulted in his dramatic experience.

Certainly possible but it is not, IMO, as inherently implausible as you suggest.

k_smith123

I believe that Paul was speaking allegorically and the number 500 is an allusion to the Phoenix and it's 500 year lifespan. Paul viewed Christ as a metaphor representing allegoric secrets and he was basically explaining that these secrets had been expressed in different forms prior to the interpretation embraced by Paul.

As further evidence of a Christ/Phoenix link I offer the following:

Clement of Rome:

1Clem 25:2 There is a bird, which is named the phoenix. This, being the only one of its kind, liveth for five hundred years; and when it hath now reached the time of its dissolution that it should die, it maketh for itself a coffin of frankincense and myrrh and the other spices, into the which in the fullness of time it entereth, and so it dieth. 1Clem 25:3 But, as the flesh rotteth, a certain worm is engendered, which is nurtured from the moisture of the dead creature and putteth forth wings. Then, when it is grown lusty, it taketh up that coffin where are the bones of its parent, and carrying them journeyeth from the country of Arabia even unto Egypt, to the place called the City of the Sun;

Cornelius Tacitus:

"During the consulship of Paulus Fabius and Lucius Vitellius (34 CE), the bird called the phoenix, after a long succession of ages, appeared in Egypt and furnished the most learned men of that country and of Greece with abundant matter for the discussion of the marvelous phenomenon. It is my wish to make known all on which they agree with several things, questionable enough indeed, but not too absurd to be noticed.

That it is a creature sacred to the sun, differing from all other birds in its beak and in the tints of its plumage, is held unanimously by those who have described its nature. As to the number of years it lives, there are various accounts. The general tradition says five hundred years. Some maintain that it is seen at intervals of fourteen hundred and sixty-one years, and that the former birds flew into the city called Heliopolis successively in the reigns of Sesostris, Amasis, and Ptolemy, the third king of the Macedonian dynasty, with a multitude of companion birds marveling at the novelty of the appearance. But all antiquity is of course obscure. From Ptolemy to Tiberius was a period of less than five hundred years. Consequently some have supposed that this was a spurious phoenix, not from the regions of Arabia, and with none of the instincts which ancient tradition has attributed to the bird. For when the number of years is completed and death is near, the phoenix, it is said, builds a nest in the land of its birth and infuses into it a germ of life from which an offspring arises, whose first care, when fledged, is to bury its father. This is not rashly done, but taking up a load of myrrh and having tried its strength by a long flight, as soon as it is equal to the burden and to the journey, it carries its father's body, bears it to the altar of the Sun, and leaves it to the flames. All this is full of doubt and legendary exaggeration. Still, there is no question that the bird is occasionally seen in Egypt."

The author of Matthew:

Matt. 2:11 On coming to the house, they (the Magi) saw the child (Christ) with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.
12 And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route.
13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him."
14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt,
15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

If we do not wish to believe the literal story of Christ, then what is wrong with an allegoric understanding that includes allusions to other mythical metaphors?