Chili

. . . he was counted among the wicked because the cross of eternal salvation is for sinners only! Or did you perhaps think that they want cowards in heaven?

So why do you think we have confessionals if not to encourage the courages sinner.

ynquirer

Where does Paul say that the woman was a virgin in perpetuity?

Amaleq13

Do you see that these details appear to indicate that "Paul thought that Jesus was a Jew and a descendant of David"?

Regarding Paul's source(s), do you think it reasonable that he would persecute this group he later joined without knowing anything about their beliefs?

dog-on

I think that is what the scriptures revealed to Paul...

Since the writer of these epistles probably invented the religion, who exactly was he persecuting again?

andrewcriddle

Also Antinous, the boyfriend of the Emperor Hadrian, who died under mysterious circumstances.

Andrew Criddle

Amaleq13

You're stuck on the source when Ben's point is the apparent meaning of what Paul writes about Jesus regardless of the assumed source.

So, do you see that these details appear to indicate that "Paul thought that Jesus was a Jew and a descendant of David"?

Paul tells us he persecuted the "assembly of God"(YLT) before becoming an apostle after several others. He is arguably the originator of what came to be its own religion but he clearly joined an existing belief system to do so.

Gamera

Ben, I think the dearth of pertinent responses to your challenge makes your point, nor do I expect any citations that meet the requirements you challenged the mythicists to set forth.

The reason is twofold:

First, there simply are very few primary source texts with mystery religion content. Mystery religions are reconstructions, derived mostly from archeological guesses and post-Christian authors commenting on pagan religions.

Second, I think you're correct in your apparent conclusion that there are no obvious examples of mythic figures in classical paganism that fit the bill (i.e, that engaged in divine other wordly conduct refered to in terms of a terrestial biography).

Having said that, I think the closest candidate to your challenge is probably from the Havamal ("Words of the High One," a late Old Norse text), where Odin obtains wisdom by hanging on the world tree Yggdrasil in some sort of self-sacrifice ritual. The text clearly passed through the hands of Christian clerics so it's difficult to determine what is authentic Old Norse shamanism, and what is Christian interpolation designed to bring Othin into the iconography of Christianity (something Germanic clerics were keen to do). In any case, Odin is represented as functioning in some other divine dimension, but he also gets imported into history, running around and having affairs and such: it's hard to tell exactly when or if he's in history or in Asgaard and whether his conduct is symbolic/ritualistic or just plain narrative.

That isn't exactly what you're looking for, but it's probably the best the mythicists can do (and ironically of course I'm an historicist).

(btw, I may be conflating the Havamal with the Elder Edda -- another late ON text that is also subject to profound Christian redaction -- I haven't read them in a while, but the ambiguous treatment of Odin is present in both).

Roland

I don't know why this idea of various levels of reality strikes the people on here as so strange and unprecedented since PAUL HIMSELF in his own writing seems to indicate that he actually went there.

Apparently, this was a very common belief in Judaism, as evidenced by this site:

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shok...th_Heaven.html

Chili

If he doesn't he should have, or at least could have because it cannot be any other way. It has been that way throughout the ages and will always be that way or Mary could not be co-redemptrix.

Sorry for throwing that in but Eden is preserved by the woman (here called Mary) while we are outsiders and only a rebirth that is incipient from upon high will allow us back in. For this to happen the perpetual virginity of Mary is a necessary condition to make 'upon high' known.

Ben C Smith

That ought to come in handy in future debates.

Opponent: Where does Paul say that?
Ben: Not sure he does, but he should have.

Ben.