Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Seeker2000 · 07-07-2006, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clete

Say what? I think a lot of hippies were atheists. John Lennon springs instantly to mind.

John Lennon and his song "Imagine" ("Imagine there's no countries [...] And no religion too") was mentionend in the video as well.

Well, personally I think it's a great song.

http://www.lyrics007.com/John%20Lenn...%20Lyrics.html

Haran · 07-07-2006, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Johnny: Atheism and agnosticism continue to enjoy significant gains. However, as a Christian once correctly told me, there is not a necessary correlation between the truth and how many people believe it.

That would be why you have fallen hook, line, and stinker for militant atheism/agnosticism and are blind to your own limitations, biggotry, and hypocrisy.

Seeker2000 · 07-07-2006, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Atheism is far from collapsing. Consider the following:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist1.htm

Atheists have always constituted a very small percentage of the population. The number of people who identify themselves as Atheists has grown rapidly, particularly over the last few decades. This increase may have been partly caused by the decline of attendance at Sunday schools, and churches. It probably also reflects the general increase in secularism within society. Many Atheists who feel a need for spiritual discussion, fellowship in a religious community, and ritual join a congregation of the Unitarian-Universalist Association.

Well, I think here in Germany approximately one third of the population consists of people who are not officially part of any organized religious group. There has been an increased interest in esotericism in recent years (there are also some very annoying new astrology channels on TV), so maybe some people satisfy their spiritual thirst this way. Also, a reason for these numbers definitely lies in the German Unification - many people from Eastern Germany have lived in a socialist country before.

All in all I would say that Germany is a much more secular country than the USA, even without the people from the former German Democratic Republic. Of course that doesn't mean that it isn't a Christian country. Christianity plays a big role in the history of Europe anyway. Approximately one third of the population is Catholic and approximately one third is Protestant. I have a feeling though that there are many people who are officially Christian, but who don't really believe in all of it. Some might believe in a god in general or might even be agnostics. At least the numbers of practicing Christians are not that big. To translate from Wikipedia:

"The number of practicing Christians is much lower, because many Germans belong to one of the two official churches for traditional reasons only: On average only 3.8 million people visited the church services of the Catholic Church on Sunday in 2004, 1 million visited those of the Protestant Church."
[about 80 million people live in Germany]

Of course there are more devout Christians as well, especially in the southern regions of the country.

Quote:

7% of US adults classify as evangelicals (2004) (see Evangelical category for more information)

38% of US adults classify as born again, but not evangelical. (2004)

Oh, I always thought that there is a connection between born again Christians and evangelicals.

Quote:

However, as a Christian once correctly told me, there is not a necessary correlation between the truth and how many people believe it.

That's absolutely correct.

This correlation does not necessarily exist.

madmax2976 · 07-07-2006, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haran

That would be why you have fallen hook, line, and stinker for militant atheism/agnosticism and are blind to your own limitations, biggotry, and hypocrisy.

Let's rid the world of all "militant atheists" and "militant theists" - that way we'd get rid of a ton of a hypocrisy, bigotry and those blind to their own limitations.

Haran · 07-07-2006, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmax2976

Let's rid the world of all "militant atheists" and "militant theists" - that way we'd get rid of a ton of a hypocrisy, bigotry and those blind to their own limitations.

LOL...now that would be immoral!

Rather, lets mellow them out a bit.

madmax2976 · 07-07-2006, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haran

LOL...now that would be immoral!

Rather, lets mellow them out a bit.

Eeek. I think we'll be old men by then.

Mythra · 07-07-2006, 08:51 PM

Take away the hell doctrine and Pascal's wager, and the atheist population would increase by about 500 percent.

Some people call themselves christian just because they recognize that eternity is a really really long time.

joedad · 07-07-2006, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeker2000

After that it becomes really ridiculous and the video goes on about failed atheist ideologies like communism or fascism and the Third Reich.

Nazi Germany grew from Christian roots. So did Stalinism. How is it that Christian nations become so diabolical and murderous if being Christian is supposed to be the very answer to such things in the first place?

lpetrich · 07-08-2006, 02:18 AM

I think it's fair to say that being an atheist won't keep one from believing in a quasi-religious belief system -- or constructing one. Consider the quasi-religious features of Communism like its personality cultism.

Check out this page on Joseph Stalin's personality cult:

Quote:

Thank you, Stalin. Thank you because I am joyful. Thank you because I am well. No matter how old I become, I shall never forget how we received Stalin two days ago. centuries will pass, and the generations still to come will regard us as the happiest of mortals, as the most fortunate of men, because we lived in the century of centuries, because we were privileged to see Stalin, our inspired leader. Yes, and we regard ourselves as the happiest of mortals because we are the contemporaries of a man who never had an equal in world history. ...

O great Stalin, O leader of the peoples,
Thou who broughtest man to birth.
Thou who fructifies the earth,
Thou who restorest to centuries,
Thou who makest bloom the spring,
Thou who makest vibrate the musical chords...
Thou, splendour of my spring, O thou,
Sun reflected by millions of hearts.

Also check out Wikiquote on Stalin's personality cult, which contains these additional gems:

Quote:

Exalt, rejoice, for it is here, the day of victory!

So here it is, the day, Stalin has gifted it to us
To our own Stalin - glory and praise!
To Marshal Stalin - glory and praise!
Marshal Stalin's - glorious deeds:
The hordes of fascists have been thrown to the ground
To Stalin - eternal glory!
He brings peace to all the peoples of the earth
The wild beast is vanquished, it dies in the dust.
Joy blazes in free hearts:
To Stalin - eternal glory!
published in Pravda, May 10th 1945
by Maksim Rylski, a Ukrainian poet

In all their many languages the peoples of the Soviet Union compose songs to Stalin, expressing their supreme love and boundless devotion for their great leader, teacher, friend and military commander.
In the lore and art of the people, Stalin's name is ever linked with Lenin's. "We go with Stalin as with Lenin, we talk to Stalin as to Lenin; he knows our inmost thoughts; all his life he has cared for us," runs one of the many exquisite Russian folk tales of today.
Joseph Stalin: A Short Biography, 1952, p. 206

Any good sources on Mao Zedong's personality cult? Or those of other notable Communist leaders like Enver Hoxha and Nicolae Ceausescu? On the personality cults of North Korean leaders Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il, I've found this page, which contains

Quote:

In the days of the Japanese colonial rule of Korea, Kim Il-sung never participated in real combats, although he was a Soviet army captain belonging to the 88 Special Reconnaissance Brigade; yet, he claimed that for 15 years he participated in more than 100,000 battles (over 20 battles a day) and won victories, even forging mystic stories that he turned sand into rice and crossed rivers on a leaflet as if he were an almighty deity. ...

Kim Jong-il was actually born in Vyatsk in the vicinity of Khabarovsk, the Far Eastern region of the ex-Soviet Union, but his birth has been falsified as if he was born in a "milyong" (secret camp) on Mt. Paekdu, Yanggang Province. Therefore, the milyong has been designated a sacred ground, which people are encouraged to visit every year. Even a "Kim Jong-il Department" is established in each university, and the curriculum of primary and secondary schools contains lessons about Kim Jong-il's fabricated childhood. ...

North Korea has also invented a variety of absurd legends and anecdotes to idolize Kim Jong-il. For example, "At the time of his birth there were flashes of lightening and thunder, the iceberg in the pond on Mt. Paekdu emitted a mysterious sound as it broke, and bright double rainbows rose up," "At the age of 4 he smeared a Japanese map with black ink, then a stormy rain poured down on Japan," "By a touch of Kim Jong-il's hand the sea turned into a fertile land and a deep valley into a paradise," and numerous others of unbearable absurdity.

Ezkerraldean · 07-08-2006, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

I think it's fair to say that being an atheist won't keep one from believing in a quasi-religious belief system -- or constructing one. Consider the quasi-religious features of Communism like its personality cultism.

thats why Lenin was embalmed. Stalin probably wanted to set up a new quasi-religion. Trostsky was horrified at the idea of embalming Lenin.

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07-07-2006, 08:51 PM	#27
Mythra Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: BFE Posts: 416	Take away the hell doctrine and Pascal's wager, and the atheist population would increase by about 500 percent. Some people call themselves christian just because they recognize that eternity is a really really long time.

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