JoeWallack

JW:
Continuing...

14: (NIV)
10 "Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. 11They were delighted to hear this and promised to give him money. So he watched for an opportunity to hand him over."

JW:
We just saw an unknown woman Prepare (anoint) Jesus for Death and now one of The Disciples will also prepare Jesus for death. Ironic of course that this unknown woman would be Eternally forgotten while the betrayer, Judas, would be Eternally remembered.

With the basic question in mind of Where is The Author placing The Disciples in His story, on the Inside with those Failing Jesus or on the Outside with those having Faith in Jesus, what does this story indicate?

"Judas" is of course "Judah" so this may be an Intentional Fictional creation to match Disciple Failure, to some degree, with Jewish (Judah) Failure in General. Note that "Mark" provides no initial Motivation for Judas' betrayal. This also may be an Intentional Editorial comment that there was no good reason why The Jews and The Disciples Betrayed Jesus.

"Iscariot" - anagram for "Christ"?

More importantly, I can't help noticing (and therefore you will not help noticing) that many times when "Mark" shows The Disciples Negatively via Narrative it's directly related to a Lecture from "Mark's" Jesus on how Not to Act. Thereby The Disciples are The Example Illustrating Negative behaviour Specifically Identified by Jesus in Lecture. Here:

13: (NIV)
11 "Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
12 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved."

"Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial". "Brother will betray brother to death". So brother will Betray brother and even Ben will betray an "Uncle!"



Joseph

EXTINCTION, n.
The raw material out of which theology created the future state.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
Continuing...

14: (NIV)
27 "You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written:
" 'I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.'[c] 28But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee."
29 Peter declared, "Even if all fall away, I will not."
30 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "today—yes, tonight—before the rooster crows twice[d] you yourself will disown me three times."
31 But Peter insisted emphatically, "Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you." And all the others said the same."

"You will all fall away," - has a primary meaning of Failing in a Religious sense. Let's see where else The Author has used this word: (RSV)

4:17 (The Parable)
"and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away."

6:3 (The Family)
"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him."

9:42 (The Little Ones)
"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea."

Seems to be an important word for The Author.

"for it is written:
" 'I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered."

Also Fulfills Prophecy. Note that this was a little too much for "Luke".

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "today—yes, tonight—before the rooster crows twice[d] you yourself will disown me three times."

Jesus even predicts Peter's Failure To Peter. He also Emphasizes the Failure with "3". And now a Flashback:

8:33 (RSV)
"... But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter, and said, "Get behind me, Satan! For you are not on the side of God, but of men."
Mar 8:34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Mar 8:35 For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it.
Mar 8:36 For what does it profit a man, to gain the whole world and forfeit his life?
Mar 8:37 For what can a man give in return for his life?
Mar 8:38 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

Sure sounds like a set-up for Peter's later Failure:

1) Jesus rebuked Peter.

2) Jesus called Peter "Satan".

3) Jesus had his Disciples Witness.

4) Jesus used it as an Example for The Multitude.

5) Jesus than gives some of the most important advice for the entire Gospel and Audience:

- Follow Jesus

- Deny Yourself

- Don't Deny Jesus

- Lose your Life for Jesus

- Don't be Ashamed of Jesus

All of which Peter Fails to do in The Prime Illustration of Failure in The Gospel.

So once again The Disciple(s) are used as a Narrative Example of Failure to Illustrate Definition of Failure given by Jesus in Discourse to The Audience.



Joseph

"Oh, for Pete's Sake" - "Mark's" Jesus

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
Continuing...

14: (NIV)
32 "They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, "Sit here while I pray." 33He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. 34"My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death," he said to them. "Stay here and keep watch."
35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36"Abba,[e] Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."
37 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Simon," he said to Peter, "are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour? 38Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
39 Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. 40When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him.
41 Returning the third time, he said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 42Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"


JW:
Jesus had previously Warned about keeping Watch in Discourse Advice:

13: (NIV)
32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33Be on guard! Be alert[f]! You do not know when that time will come. 34It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' "

"Mark's" Jesus says to keep "Watch" Three times and Ends with "Watch". He gives the specific advice, "do not let him find you sleeping" and qualifies that this advice is for Everyone.

In Gethsemane Jesus only tells Peter, James and John to "Watch". The same Three who have had their own Individual Failure Stories. Jesus mentions "Watch" Three times. Jesus finds the Three sleeping.

Also of Note, apparently Peter had a name change while he was sleeping as Jesus addresses him as "Simon" for the only time in the Gospel, "Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter)".

Another Devastating Example of not only Key Negative Portrayal of The Disciples but Fulfillment of THE Negative Behaviour Warned about in Discourse to Everyone.



Joseph

CUPID, n.
The so-called god of love. This bastard creation of a barbarous fancy was no doubt inflicted upon mythology for the sins of its deities. Of all unbeautiful and inappropriate conceptions this is the most reasonless and offensive. The notion of symbolizing sexual love by a semisexless babe, and comparing the pains of passion to the wounds of an arrow -- of introducing this pudgy homunculus into art grossly to materialize the subtle spirit and suggestion of the work -- this is eminently worthy of the age that, giving it birth, laid it on the doorstep of prosperity.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
Bultman, Weeden, Kelber and Fowler have demonstrated that "Mark" presented The Disciples Negatively so that The Reader could learn from their mistakes. Let's now go Beyond Bultman El All to take "Mark's" Disciples even farther from Mainstream Christian Bible scholarship:

"Mark" first sets up Definitions of General Disciple Failure in Discourse (mainly directed to The Reader) to use as Contrast to Definitions of Disciple Success

and than

shows by Narrative The Disciples Fulfilling the Negative Definition (sometimes claiming Explicit fulfillment of Prophecy).

Thus in considering the Extent of "Mark's" Negative portrayal of The Disciples we have the following worsening levels:

1) "Mark" attributes Negative behaviour to The Disciples most of the time.

2) The Disciples' Negative behaviour is Contrasted with Strangers' Positive behaviour.

3) The Disciples' Negative behaviour in Narrative Fulfills the Negative Definition of Behaviour in Discourse.

4) The Disciples' Negative behaviour in Narrative Fulfills Most of the Negative Definitions of Behaviour in Discourse.

5) 3) and 4) are claimed to Fulfill Prophecy.

Therefore, with this extreme Negative portrayal of "Mark's" The Disciples, The Only Way to Conclude that "Mark's" The Disciples had a Jesus future is to accept that "Mark" is Primarily addressed to The Reader and therefore the primary purpose of The Disciples in "Mark" is to illustrate Failure for the benefit of The Reader and the Historical role of The Disciples was unimportant to "Mark". Let The Reader understand.

Continuing...

14:43 (NIV)

In Light of the above let's first see the Discourse set-up for The Disciples Failure of 14:43 (which of course came first):

13: (NIV)
9 "You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
12 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 "When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation'[a]standing where it[b] does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak."

and now, the Peace de Resistance:

14: (NIV)
43 "Just as he was speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, appeared. With him was a crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests, the teachers of the law, and the elders.
44 Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him and lead him away under guard." 45Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Rabbi!" and kissed him. 46The men seized Jesus and arrested him. 47 Then one of those standing near drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
48 "Am I leading a rebellion," said Jesus, "that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? 49Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled." 50Then everyone deserted him and fled.
51 A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, 52he fled naked, leaving his garment behind."


Discourse:
"Brother will betray brother to death,"

Narrative:
"Judas [Judah], one of the Twelve, appeared"


Discourse:
"When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation'[a]standing where it[b] does not belong" - This refers to the army sent from Rome to The Temple.

Narrative:
"With him was a crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests, the teachers of the law, and the elders." - Sent to the New Temple (Jesus).


Discourse:
The Signs of The End of The Age.

Narrative:
"the betrayer had arranged a signal with them"


Discourse:
"The one I kiss is the man; arrest him and lead him away under guard."

Narrative:
"Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial,"


Discourse:
"All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Narrative:
"Then everyone deserted him and fled." (Negative example). Note that based on the Discourse The Disciples are "fleeing" at the Opposite time they should be. Per Discourse they should "stand firm" when Arrested and Flee when The Temple is "Arrested".


Discourse:
"Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak."

Narrative:
"A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, 52he fled naked, leaving his garment behind." - We can finally put the Naked Young Man to bed, I think.


Note especially:

"Am I leading a rebellion," said Jesus"

Per "Mark" he is of course (Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death), but it's a Spiritual Rebellion and not a Physical Rebellion. How...Unexpected. You have the Fabulous Contrast that "The Jews" (including The Disciples) Historically chose the Physical Rebellion, just as the Fictional Jews chose the Physical Rebel Bar Abbas, leading to The Temple being destroyed while Subsequent Christianity chose Jesus' Spiritual Rebellion which led to a Peaceful Conquering of Rome. Hmmm...how did I end up with that? Doesn't seem right. Let me check my notes.



Joseph

REBEL, n.
A proponent of a new misrule who has failed to establish it.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

jakejonesiv

I think Mark is best understood as first being presented as a public performance, similar to a Greek Tragedy. See on MTurton's excellent site, Excursus: Was Mark meant to be Performed?
Jesus displays a certain amount of hubris, a tragic flaw, which leads to his downfall and death.

It has been noted in the discussion of Robert Fowler's "Let the Reader Understand" that the narrator often seems to be speaking directly to the audience, over the heads the characters in the story. Most of Jesus' major pronouncements also can be understood as Jesus turning to the audience.

Jesus interacts very little with the other characters at the story level. In the crucial opening scene, Jesus is possessed by an unnamed spirit (Mark 1:9-10). This is viewed only by the *readers* of GMark. The supposed characters (e.g., JBap) know nothing of the event. This continues to the very end, where the women at the tomb say nothing (Mark 16:8). It is unnecessary for the women to tell the tale because the narrator has told the reader/audience.

It is striking that the disciples never seem to understand the major pronouncements of Jesus. It is as if they never heard them. This includes the women who go to the tomb (Mark 16:1) to anoint the body of Jesus. They apparently had completely forgotten that Jesus had already been anointed (Mark 14:8). As much as the disciples and Peter are castigated for not understanding, the women prove to be just as dense. The impression left is that Jesus is operating in some other realm apart from the normative "Forrest Gump" characters of GMark. They may occupy the same stage, but they walk and talk past each other as when Jesus walks upon the sea.

Jesus tells the disciples, "But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee" (Mark 14:28). The narrator has already plainly told the reader, "But without a parable spake he not unto them" (4:34). In Mark, Jesus is always telling his readers to "Follow me." Even so, at the end of the gospel, Jesus appears to no one; again, he must be followed. "Galilee" is an "other world" (4:34) from which Jesus comes and returns, and to which the disciples (and the readers) must follow (16:7) if they are to see Jesus again.

Jake

JoeWallack

I Am The Eye in The Sky, Teacher of Foools,
I can read your mind.
I Am The Jeew Die, breaking the rules,
I can see you're blind.


JW:
Continuing...

And now for a real treat. An Irony that I think the Original Author of "Mark" would really appreciate:

Simon = "that hears; that obeys"

Now let's look at all uses of "Satan", "The Adversary", in "Mark" and consider the Relationship to "Mark's" Peter: (NIV)

1:12
"At once the Spirit sent him out into the desert, 13and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him."

So Satan was Leading Jesus.

1:14
"After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15"The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"
As Jesus walked beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. 17"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men." 18At once they left their nets and followed him."

In the Next story Simon is Following Jesus.

3:11
"Whenever the evil[a] spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, "You are the Son of God." 12But he gave them strict orders not to tell who he was."

Followed by:

13 "Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14He appointed twelve—designating them apostles[b]—that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15and to have authority to drive out demons. 16These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter"

As mentioned before "apostles" is a Forgery. Important point, per "Mark" they are Disciples, not Apostles.

Followed by (you guessed it):

20 "Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Beelzebub[c]! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons."
23 So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come."

So we have Peter and The Disciples Intercalated between Evil Spirits and Satan.

Followed by:

31 "Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."
33 "Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.
34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 35Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

"Whoever does God's will", "that obeys".
And who are Mark's Jesus' Disciples? J asked. Whoever does "Mark's" God's will is "Mark's" Jesus' Disciple. Let The Reader Understand.

The Key Parable:

4:
9 "Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

"let him hear", "that hears"

JW:
Roll it Vork:

10 "When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12so that,
" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'[a]"

"ever hearing but never understanding", "ever hearing but never understanding". Who is it in "Mark" that is "ever hearing but never understanding". Could it be he "that hears"?

The Narrative says that The Disciples were told. But Who is really Hearing, The Disciples or The Reader?

Followed by:

13 "Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? 14The farmer sows the word. 15Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. 16Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away."

As previously noted "Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away." probably refers to Peter as "rocky" is the same word, Peter heard the word and at once received it with joy and when trouble or persecution came because of the word, quickly fell away. Note that once again Satan is placed right next to Peter:

"Then J said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? Only "Mark's" The Historical The Disciples could have "heard" Jesus and not understood. The Reader can not "Hear" Jesus. The Reader can only Read and by not Hearing "Hear" Jesus.

Now where has Mark's Satan gone to?:

8:
27 "Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, "Who do people say I am?"
28 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets."
29 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
Peter answered, "You are the Christ.[b]"
30Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him."

So now Peter knows Who Jesus is just like The Demons all know. "But he gave them strict orders not to tell who he was." just like he gave The Demons.

Followed by:

31 "He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."

We had just learned Who Jesus is. Now we learn Who Peter is as he is Explicitly IDeed by Jesus as Satan. As Joseph C. said, "What more need have we of further witness. You have heard The Testimony!" Note that now "Satan" is Behind Jesus. The Lesson (For The Reader) at Peter's expense:

"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."

Jake, can you dig it?

13:
35 "Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' "

and

14:
37 "Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Simon," he said to Peter, "are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour?"

I know you can. Now "Peter" is called "Simon" because he couldn't "Watch".

14:
46 "The men seized Jesus and arrested him. 47Then one of those standing near drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
48 "Am I leading a rebellion," said Jesus, "that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? 49Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled." 50Then everyone deserted him and fled."

"struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear." I love it! Let he who has no ear, hear. So on the "But the Scriptures must be fulfilled" cue, did The Disciples all haul Asa or was this for The Reader?

And, as The Brits Melah say, "The Cruncher":

14:
Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ,[f] the Son of the Blessed One?"
62 "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
63 The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. 64"You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?"
They all condemned him as worthy of death. 65Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him, struck him with their fists, and said, "Prophesy!" And the guards took him and beat him.
66 While Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came by. 67When she saw Peter warming himself, she looked closely at him.
"You also were with that Nazarene, Jesus," she said.
68 But he denied it. "I don't know or understand what you're talking about," he said, and went out into the entryway.[g]
69 When the servant girl saw him there, she said again to those standing around, "This fellow is one of them." 70Again he denied it.
After a little while, those standing near said to Peter, "Surely you are one of them, for you are a Galilean."
71 He began to call down curses on himself, and he swore to them, "I don't know this man you're talking about."
72 Immediately the rooster crowed the second time.[h] Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken to him: "Before the rooster crows twice[i] you will disown me three times." And he broke down and wept."

Once again, right after Jesus confesses Who he is, Peter confesses Who he is. And all in the same Climax. And right at Verse 66!

"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." - Well Peter "came after" Jesus but he Denied Jesus and didn't "Follow" him. And Jesus even gave him a Specific warning:

"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows,"

Understandably, Simon never expected the Owner to come back in the next Pericope. Oh well, Simon's loss of the name "Peter" is someone else's gain. Amalek?:

15:
21 "A certain man from Cyrene, Simon, the father of Alexander and Rufus, was passing by on his way in from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross."

In every use of "Satan", The Adversary, in "Mark" Peter is always right there.
And so The person Subsequent Christianity chose as The Founder of The Church on Earth, Peter, was actually Sinonymous with Satan according to The Original Gospel. Now that's Ironic!

"I tell you the truth," J said to Ben, "before the cocky crows "Simon Didn't Saay" three times you yourself will disown your Position."



J

Oh c'mon, they never wrote em this Good. Who do the son of men say that I Am.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Ben C Smith

My stated position is that Mark is primarily negative about the disciples during the ministry of Jesus, but alludes to a restoration to faith after the resurrection. When you go on at length about all the negativities within the ministry of Jesus, you are supporting my position. With so many posts of support from you, I have no need to disown my position.

Ben.

jakejonesiv

Joe,


That is an incredible insight, Peter=Satan and disciples=Demons. In the urGospel (if there was one) could there have originally only been satan and demons, and these later split and evolved into Peter and the diciples? That Peter :devil1: in the mnemonic twin of Satan?

It would be really neat to see in parallel columns what is said about Satan/demons and the corresponding passage about Peter/disciples.

Jake

JoeWallack

And to the Skeptics I became as a Skeptic, that I might gain Skeptics; to them that are under the Skeptism, as under the Skeptism, not being myself under the Skeptism, that I might gain them that are under the Skeptism



JW:
Fowler is Light years beyond Mainstream Christian Bible scholarship in that he Understands "Mark" is Primarily Discourse to The Reader rather than Narrative to the Characters. However, Fowler is using this observation as an Apology for the Condemnation of The Disciples by "Mark". His Position is that the Narrative is Unimportant compared to the Discourse and mainly a Vehicle For the Discourse. "Mark" though is Combining Discourse to Reader (Model of Positive Disciple) and Narrative to Characters (Model of Negative Disciple). And even though the Narrative is Secondary, it's still an Important point of The Author and Discourse and Narrative co-Ordination. The Historical Failure of The Disciples as explained by Narrative creates the Need for Discourse to The Reader to achieve Success. "Mark" is not just Inviting The Reader to become The Disciples. He's Inviting The Reader to Replace The Disciples.

But it is not the Hearers who need a Doctoring of "Mark", but the sick. I came to Explain not to the Understanding, like you, but Signers...

But good X-Uh-Jesus should first be rewarded:

Mark 9: (NIV)
38 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
39 "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward."

"Mark" is explaining that Authority comes from Believing in Jesus and not from The Disciples. Understand Dear Reader? Who needs The Disciples? "Matthew" Understood what this meant so he didn't copy it.

In this Thread I've Progressively laid out a Worsening problem with "Mark" for Christianity:

1) The Disciples are Generally Portrayed Negatively.

2) The Disciples are Always Portrayed Negatively.

3) The Narrative shows The Disciples as Examples of Failure.

4) The Discourse illustrates a Model of Failure which is Fulfilled by The Disciples in Narrative.

5) The Disciples' Failure is claimed to fulfill Prophecy.

6) "6)" heh, heh, The Author makes a Connection between Peter/Satan and The Disciples/Demons.

Where a Christian stands on this scale depends Primarily on their Christianity scale, Fundamentalist, Conservative, Mainstream, Liberal. Fowler is probably between 4) and 5).

On the longest Possible Timeline Christianity's Impossible survival rate will be -0- when it accepts 6) and loses The Good Fight. Makes Isaiah 52:15 sound like some kind of Prophet or something. This observation (that according to the Original Gospel The Disciples were Final Failures) is Devastating to Christian Assertion. Makes one wonder why any Liberal Christian would be didlying with the didadche when this Thread is available.

But speaking of someone who is sick of me pointing out that "Mark's" Peter was sinonymous with Satan and instead has Faith in one little Statement by an unidentifed object that no one listened to...

So Ben, in this Thread, even though you are the only other Character here. Am I primarily addressing you or The Reader?



Joseph

The First Rule of Christ Club - Never tell anyone about Christ Club

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Vorkosigan

BINGO.

What a fantastic insight.

Vorkosigan