xaxxat

Um, because it never happened? If Ubar and its roads could be found underneath the sand, why not the Hebrew camps at Kadseh-Barnea? Why? Because it never happened...

spin

Here are a few links of the non-voodoo kind which deal with Tel Rehov carbon dating:

Official analysis

Finkelstein and Piasetzky


spin

Larsguy47

Good, but what TYPE of evidence would you expect? All the records of Akhenaten were destroyed. We got a break with the Amarna Letters. But, as portrayed in the Bible the Ten Plagues were designed to show up the false God's of Egypt. One would think, therefore, seeing the True God to be a living God that lots of people might have converted to monotheism. Yet, that is precisely what Akhenaten does! And this is specific. He didn't just decide to make Isis #1 and suppress Thoth and Amun! This is an "invisible" creator God, who inspires psalms about himself so similar to those of David many feel there must be a connection between the two. No zoomorphic or anthropopmorphic image of Aten? Why not? Non-support and suppresion of other gods called "worthless"? Akhenaten's response to the Ten Plagues by an invisible Creator God requiring no images and "no other gods before me (i.e. monotheism), makes Akhenaten Yahweh's #1 "witness" of the time. But not just chronologically, for the actual confirmation of the Ten Plagues. Why else would he have had this focussed conversion?

>Many hisotrian have noted that the Egyptians did not write about their defeats. However, the plagues would leave behind evidence other than just Egyptian records.

You're right and I believe so. But in this case, you have to deal with the specifics of Akhenaten! His records were purposely destroyed. He was "erased" as much as possible. So if evidence of the Jews were found in his records, then they were destroyed too. So we would not expect to find this mentioned. However, there was some reference I have yet to reconfirm among the imagery of Akhenaten of a doorpost with blood on it that some claim would reference this, semi-directly. I have the book this is supposed to be referenced in but I haven't found it specifically. When I do I'll share it. So there just "might" be something of what survived.

In the meantime, the "miracle" of pharoah's death in the Red Sea with his army is another major event that should have been well publicized. The EA29 Amarna Letter, to me, more than confirms his death was a well known event and "report" and very much in the context that pharoah died with at least 1000 others! So for what we do have surviving, I think we have strong confirmation consistent with this unusual event happening. Akhenaten's behavior is certainly exceptional, but not if you considered he went through the Ten Plagues, experienced the death of the first-born of Egypt and then his father's death in the Red Sea. He of all people had first-hand observation. How could he have not been impressed? Fact is, he was and his worship of Aten is so similar to that of the Jews and monotheism many writers claim they must "obviously" be related. They think Akhenaten must have been Moses! So the "circumstantial evidence" speaks very well for this happening. We don't have the "words" but never moreso would it be true that "deeds speak louder than words."

That's correct.

Certainly a logical argument, but a bit of an exaggeration. That is, it would have only been that current crop that would have failed and I'm sure Egypt has had crop failures before and survived. Further, we know there were "storage cities" built by the Jews, so there was at least grain stores available to get through that one season. This happened during the sping so the barley and what crops would have been affected. The Egyptians could have lived on all kinds of things after this happened to survive that one bad season, plus relied on their grain stores. That considered, and all of Akhenaten's specific records destroyed for the most part, I think the evidence of a major tragedy in Egypt just on the basis of a failed crop season is not "POWERFUL EVIDENCE" that this didn't happen.

What we do know is that apparently Egypt wasn't shipping as much gold, there was a decrease in military support, the new pharoah was totally obsessed with following a new religion, and one king writing the pharoah confirms there was a "report" connected with the death of Amenhotep III suggesting it was connected with some unusual event.

So the lack of a presumed major death toll because of one failed crop in a very prosperous and rich Egypt at the time I don't think is enough basis to preempt the historical references here and the other very compatible "circumstantial" elements consistent with the Exodus and the Ten Plagues.

But certainly, thanks for sharing your take on this. I think your expectations are reasonable.

Larsguy47

Larsguy47

You mean where are the bones of the buried people from 3000 years ago? Those bones of those nonembalmed bodies? Those graves?

Yeah, of messy people who had access to replace their pottery and whatever else they left behind. Tell me, how many "graves" did they find? Plus you know the burial practices of one people may not be that of others. Are you saying if the Jews buried people in the desert, that we should be able to find those shallow graves now? Have they dug up the entire Negev yet? Just asking.

Listen. Anything "miraculous" is by it's nature not going to make sense by standard examination. So you're disbelief of a miracle is not on the table for discussion. As long as they claim it was a "miracle" then they are agreeing with you that it doesn't make sense by normal comparison. So this is not a debatable issue. We, instead, use this to explain where they got their clothing from since they were so isolated, etc. Food also. They were miraculousl fed with this "manna" stuff. Never saw manna appear in your backyard before? Well....

The source of the "fantasy" is the Bible, a historical record. We are trying to compare what survives archaeologically or historically with both the natural and the supernatural events. No one is arguing that a "miracle" especially is not logical. But you can't disprove it either. You're using logic and your personal experience to dispute a miracle. That's not your option. You don't have to believe it until I prove it. But I'm not trying to prove a miracle. On the other hand, Akhenaten's sudden converstion to monotheism suggests some traumatic or eventful personal experience which certainly would attest to the trauma and grandeur of the Ten Plagues designed to prove the gods of Egypt were false. Akhenaten got that message loud and clear. "Action speak louder than words." If I were a believer with little faith? I'm totally convinced now. There's no way the Ten Plagues didn't happen if it can be dated to the 1st of Akhenaten. Now, I don't mind doubting and wanting proof, I'm the same way with some of these unfounded archaeologist's claims, but you have to keep your eyes open. It doesn't count if you say, "I can't see it" when you have your eyes closed. If you're eyes are closed and all you see is darkness, it doesn't mean the sun isn't out.

Of course you would, since you don't have a credible challenge to any of this evidence. That's because there is none. You're coping out, which is you're only choice. So just let me get you to refocus here. You say "speculation."

1. It's archaologists and Kathleen Kenyon that date the final destruction of Jericho for this period to LBIIA between 1350-1325BCE. Is that "thoughtless speculation" on their part? Are you going to argue with them and redate this entire era yourself? Based on what? What I did was simply note that this limits the timing of the Exodus between 1390-1365BCE and then compared that to the pharoahs ruling at the time and that comes up with Amenhotep III and Akhnaten. That's a direct reference to an academic position. "Thoughtless speculation"? No. This is direct application. There is nothing to be done about this reference aside for challenging the source. Since you are not likely to do that, it remains. You don't like it. So calling names is what you have left to do, so you're doing it.

2. The RC14 dating for Shishak is absolute. It is used to date the Exodus to the same time of Akhenaten. Want to argue with that. You can't. There's no "speculation" involved. It's direct application. You just don't like it because it doesn't fit your own "fantasy" of what happened. But my presentation is based upon the academics involved. I'm just coordinating that with the Biblical.

Not IMPOSSIBLE, but simply hard to believe based upon what we know in the "natural" world today. But the Bible isn't claiming that these were not "miracles." So, of course, you have the challenge of believing this to be true or not. But you can't examine the truth of this by your own doubts and disbelief. Whether ultimately someone accepts what the Bible says, likely will hinge on something else, like if it seems to be true in other areas, etc. Nobody is claiming this is not the NORM. Then again, Akhenaten certainly wasn't the norm. His dramatic response to the Ten Plagues was quite understandable.

I thought about this. What if they used the ashes to make soap? What if they were incredibly self-sufficient? What if they cleaned up so that their enemies couldn't track their movements? These are tent-dwelling people with very few possesions, clothes that don't wear out being fed in the wilderness by a miraculous bread, buring their bodies in the dirt which would decay over time. So now I think I spoke too soon. I'm wondering just what would they have needed to bury. The only thing I could come up with are some Diet-Pepsi cans, since I think Diet-Pepsi went well with the manna. But then I thought, they probably would have used the cans; recycled them or made them into jewelry or something, you know? So what did they have to actually DUMP? I can't think of anything.

Can you?

I love that phrase: "There is no evidence..." so spontaneously called up. But in fact, there is evidence of the Jews having been in Egypt. For instance, the Jews and the Egyptians are rather unique in having the concept of the motion of the sun. They undestand it is circular and thus consider the "evening" beginning at noon, and the beginning of the rise of the sun toward day as beginning at midnight. That's rather unique. Coming out of Egypt, therefore, their CALENDAR DAY, was in line with the solar day that began at midnight. That is, while their sabbath days began at sundown, and their regular nonceremonial day began at nightfall, they still did not change the calendar date until midnight. This meant that their days fell onto parts of two calendar dates. This necessitated expressing the specific ceremonial day in terms of two calendar dates, just like now. The Jews celebrate Saturday, the Sabbath, starting on Friday night after sundown. So certain Jewish days such as the day of Atonment or the first day of the unfermented cakes, days normally dated to the 10th of Tishri or the 15th of Nisan are dated to the 9th and the 14th, "in the evening." So certainly the Egyptian understanding of the circular motion of the sun was clearly adopted by the Jews and continued a part of their culture and now is part of everybody's culture today. The beginning of the day starts at midnight. That's very Egyptian, but also Jewish. But also very smart and scientific.

Thanks again for your comments! I understand your doubts, but simply finding something fantastic (a "fantasy") is not sufficient dismissal.

Larsguy47

Pataphysician

This portion from George the Syncellus, Chronographia(800 CE), is from the Book of Sothis (Chronographia is our only source of this work), which I think most people regard as a spurious pseudo-Manetho work, not from Aegyptiaca. It would seem strange that Jospehus does not mention this in his Against Apion, if this was actually in Manetho's work, which Josephus uses considerably. It would have been another external reference to the ancientness of the Jews, something Josephus could hardly pass up.

The quote from Chronographia is

"26. Silites (the first king of the 6 kings of the Seventeenth Dynasty in Manetho), 19 years. 27. Baion, 44 years. 28. Apachnas, 36 years. 29. Aphophis, 61 years. Some say that this king was first called Pharaoh, and that by the 4th year of his reign Joseph had come into Egypt as a slave. This did make Joseph lord of Egypt, and of his whole kingdom, by the 17th year of his rule, because of the fact that he learned from him the interpretation of the dreams, and had had experience of his divine wisdom. But the Holy Scriptures also call the king in the time of Abraham Pharaoh."

Also Syncellus claims that Thutmosis III was brother to Moses adoptive mother, which would be well before Akhenaton,

spin

Yup. It's r-e-a-l dry and conducive to preservation of such things.

Are you trying to counter what you are commenting on here? It contains nothing.

So your excuse is to claim protection through invoking miracle? Useful.

Assuming your conclusion. Demonstrate that it is a historical record, that it is written in a historical genre when such a genre didn't exist, that you are not retrojecting your desires onto a text that you don't undertsand.

Where is the content???

Why waffle about Akhnaten when you don't seem to know anything constructive about him? Why bother connecting the ten plagues to him with chewing gum logic?

While we are at it, and waiting for you to connect the destruction of Jericho with anything, tell us why Exodus talks about the city of Raamses which was named after Ramses II? And why was Pithom mentioned when it wasn't built for another several centuries??

We are used to fellas redating things all the time. People want to redate to make things look a little more acceptible.

The use of C14 for Tel Rehov you provide doesn't match either analysis I posted earlier.

You seem to be retrojecting once again. Where is your evidence for the type of soap manufacture you are proposing here? When was soap first manufactured using ashes? You'll find it well over a millennium after this time, won't you?

What did they make their clothes out of? What did they use to keep records of their travels on? Where are the remains of camps and their fires? Long camp living leaves traces as any archaeologist can tell you.

Then they didn't camp, did they, these two million?

What makes you think that? Bodies buried in extremely dry conditions have been found, some even naturally embalmed.

One couldn't tell from anything you've said.

Besides bodies, old pottery, old clothes, dead animals, nothing remains of any of this, so they must have disappeared through one of your miracles.

Especially when true.

Some went in the time of Jeremiah, others as slaves in the Persian and Grek periods.

What on earth are you talking about?

And then there was evening and then there was morning, the first day.

Obviously the day began after the sun appeared. Genesis 1 shows days starting with light, as in the first day, "let there be light" and the first day started. It was followed by night.

And then there was evening and then there was morning, the first day.

Show me where in the bible the sabbath commenced in the evening. Two traditions have become confused, the Passover and the sabbath. This was post-biblical.

More retrojection.

Yeah, sure.

And total crap.


spin

jess

Yahweh has to *test* his technology? Testing walking on water technology on sand? huh?

so there should be a gap in the record where NOTHING at all was written.... there isn't one.

Where did this piece of info come from?

jess

<psst> Hex is a professional archaeologist...

Larsguy47

The Bible. Based upon simple math.

There was 430 years from the time Abraham was given the covenant and when he began to habitat in Egypt and in Caanan (off and on) until the Exodus. Abraham was 75 when the covenant was given. He was 100 when Isaac was born, which is 25 years. Isaac was 60 when Jacob and Esau were born. That gives us 85 years. Jacob was 130 years old when he came to reside in Egypt. 130 plus 85 is 215 years. This occurred within a year or two after the 7 years of famine began, following 7 years of plenty, so we'll just say by year 2 of the famine.

Jacob would have been appointed vizier at the beginning of the 7 years of plenty. Thus, if you know what year Joseph was appointed as vizier, you could calculate the year of the Exodus. Manetho says this occurred in the 17th year of Apophis. Now whether that's a good reference or not doesn't matter, that specific timing would date the Exodus 215 years after the 25th of Apophis, which happens to fall on the 1st of Akhenaten.

There has been debate about how this is specifically calculated, but this scripture is used to link the 430 years to when Abraham first received the promise, as interpreted by the Jews themselves:

Galation 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It says, not: “And to seeds,” as in the case of many such, but as in the case of one: “And to your seed,” who is Christ. 17 Further, I say this: As to the covenant previously validated by God, the Law that has come into being four hundred and thirty years later does not invalidate it, so as to abolish the promise."

If this is the case, and the 430 years reference is the entire time the nation began to dwell in Egypt, that is, at the time of Abraham while Isaac was yet still in his loins, then it would be 215 years from the 25th of Apophis to the Exodus but also to the 1st of Akhenaten.

See above. Again, the 430 years are connected with the giving of the covenant and would be a loose reference to when all the "Jews" inclusive of Abraham being a member of that nation as well as that nation being present in his loins began to dwell in Egypt. It is not counted from when Jacob first came there.

No. Galations connects the 430 years to the covenant and the sojourning in Egypt and Canaan, in which case Jacob became a resident of Egypt 215 years later, with 215 years to go to the Exodus.

No. Again, the confusion over when this 430 years actually begins is a well-documented discussion among Christian and Jewish apologetics. When it is associated with when Abraham received the covenant, then you get 215 years from the covenant until Jacob came to dwell in Egypt and 215 year from that time to the Exodus. As far as the Akhenaten reference goes, it is DIRECTLY calculated from the Manetho reference that Joseph was appointed as vizier in the 17th year of Apophis. We calculate from there to when Jacob would have entered Egypt, which would have been about his 15th year, and then calculate using the established dynasty timeline from the 15th of Apophis down 215 years, which turns out to be the 1st of Akhenaten.

That is, using one source, Apophis begins his rule in 1590BCE. His 25th year would fall in 1566 BCE. 215 years from 1566 is 1351BCE. The list shows that as the 1st year of Akhenaten. This all happens before any attempt to connect him to the Exodus by his actions, etc.

Another reference would by by Josephus that affects this:

I tried to find a nice "clean" discussion of this but didn't right away (no the net). So just in case you want to research this, there is LOTS on the net. Just Google "430 400 Egypt Jews", etc.

In the meantime, for clarity, note the following:

430 years: From the time Abraham got the covenant, age 75, until the Exodus. That means on the Full Moon Abraham entered Egypt to begin the dwelling of the people of Abraham in Egypt, until the very day, the full moon of Nisan that they left, 430 years later.

400 years: This is a period of "opression" in the Bible under Egyt but also ending with the Exodus. The event that happened 400 years earlier would be when Isaac was being teased and oppressed by his Egyptian brother Ishmael, likely at the urging of Ishmael's Egyptian mother, Hagar. It was a major symbolic incident that began the 400 years of "oppression".

450 years: The 450 years mentioned in Acts that begins the time of the Judges is just an extension of the above 400 years. That is, after 40 years in the wilderness, the Jews took 10 years to conquer the land at which time they divided the land between the tribes. That marked the 450 years and the beginning of the time of the Judges.

480 years: From the Exodus to the 6th of Solomon is 480 years.


But don't feel bad. Here is an example of this discussion I found on the web:

From: http://www.bibleworldhistory.com/CriticalPath.htm

Larsguy47

Larsguy47

Hi Joy, thanks for sharing that. You gave me my chuckle of the day! :wave:

Archaeologists are a funny bunch sometimes, it's true!!!

Larsguy47