Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 09-20-2012, 10:38 PM

That self-appointed Judge and Jury that goes by the name aa5874???

sotto voce · 09-21-2012, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

It's probably safe to assume that it was the coercive power of the Baghdad caliphate that enforced the religion thst came to be known as orthodox mohammadan islam not unlike the Byzantine regime put into place the roots of orthodox Christianity, and the caliphate reduced the imamist gnostic trends to the isolated mountains of Lebanon and Syria. And this is where the syncretic movement combining mohammadism and imamism produced the roots of Persian Shiism that emerged later.

and sometimes lower case means lower case.

Duvduv · 09-21-2012, 06:58 AM

Sorry, but I don't get the drift of your reply to my comment. In fact I think it's worth exploring the issues related to the emergence of Islam and its varieties and how it compares to the emergence of Christianity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

It's probably safe to assume that it was the coercive power of the Baghdad caliphate that enforced the religion thst came to be known as orthodox mohammadan islam not unlike the Byzantine regime put into place the roots of orthodox Christianity, and the caliphate reduced the imamist gnostic trends to the isolated mountains of Lebanon and Syria. And this is where the syncretic movement combining mohammadism and imamism produced the roots of Persian Shiism that emerged later.

and sometimes lower case means lower case.

Duvduv · 09-28-2012, 10:57 AM

So then what your inferences and theories about the emergence of Islam and the Quran in general, and then Persian Shiism in particular, especially since the inception of the Abbasid caliphate in Baghdad about 160 years after the dated death of Muhammad was around the time of the emergence of biographies??

Even the so-called hadiths were collected almost 200 years after the dated death of Muhammad by Al-Bukhari, according to traditional Islamic dating. Unless I am wrong, even sources discussing the early origins (or precursors) of Karaism from rabbinic Judaism do not discuss any aspects of Islamic practice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

It's probably safe to assume that it was the coercive power of the Baghdad caliphate that enforced the religion thst came to be known as orthodox mohammadan islam not unlike the Byzantine regime put into place the roots of orthodox Christianity, and the caliphate reduced the imamist gnostic trends to the isolated mountains of Lebanon and Syria. And this is where the syncretic movement combining mohammadism and imamism produced the roots of Persian Shiism that emerged later.

There is NO safety in assumptions. If everyone assumes their own history then we might as well do away with BC&H.

Why are your assumptions safe without evidence??

Who detemines safe assumptions??

Duvduv · 09-29-2012, 07:55 PM

Hey, AA, I am still waiting for your comments on this last posting about Islam in response to your unhappiness about my use of the phrase "safe to assume."

tanya · 09-30-2012, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The Quran says virtually nothing about Mohammed and mentions the name with no context only four times.
Everything about him is from hadiths and later biographies.

There is not one word written about David, in the Torah.

We learn about King David much later, from hadiths, like Kings and Samuel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Classical hadith specialist Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani says that the intended meaning of hadith in religious tradition is something attributed to Muhammad but that is not found in the Quran

Duvduv · 09-30-2012, 06:18 AM

Sorry, Tanya, I don't see the similarity. The Quran is an entire book allegedly awarded to Muhammad. It would be as if the Torah were given to Moses and he would be mentioned only 4 times in the entire Torah.
On the other hand it WOULD be unusual if the Books of Samuel or Kings which talk about David only mentioned him 4 times.
But this is another thread, and I'd like to get back to the original subject if anyone is interested.

Clivedurdle · 09-30-2012, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Bishop Lightfoot in the 19th century, in analyzing the epistle 1 Clement, made the remark that for early Christians like 'Clement' Jesus was a present spiritual figure whom they interacted with, not some past person whose memory they cherished (even if Lightfoot believed that there had been such a past person)

This is precisely what I used to believe as a Pentecostal Xian and what may be found now at any Pentecostal church.

I wonder if this is a major issue in accepting mythicism - people now do not have a real religious experience of the spiritual Christ.

Duvduv · 09-30-2012, 07:05 AM

The bottom line is that the alleged masses of Muslims conquering from North Africa to Baghdad belonged to religion at a time when virtually NOTHING was known in writing about the prophet/messenger/rasullah mentioned in the Quran.

This cohesion and religious coherence from North Africa to Baghdad within such a short period of time based on so little sounds hard to believe and needs to be re-examined.

tanya · 09-30-2012, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by "Duvduv

The bottom line is that the alleged masses of Muslims conquering from North Africa to Baghdad belonged to religion at a time when virtually NOTHING was known in writing about the prophet/messenger/rasullah mentioned in the Quran.

This cohesion and religious coherence from North Africa to Baghdad within such a short period of time based on so little sounds hard to believe and needs to be re-examined.

Well, how much was written about Genghis Khan?

Alexander?

Tamerlane?

Were those men only a hoax?

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09-20-2012, 10:38 PM	#71
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	That self-appointed Judge and Jury that goes by the name aa5874???

09-29-2012, 07:55 PM	#75
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Hey, AA, I am still waiting for your comments on this last posting about Islam in response to your unhappiness about my use of the phrase "safe to assume."

09-30-2012, 06:18 AM	#77
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Sorry, Tanya, I don't see the similarity. The Quran is an entire book allegedly awarded to Muhammad. It would be as if the Torah were given to Moses and he would be mentioned only 4 times in the entire Torah. On the other hand it WOULD be unusual if the Books of Samuel or Kings which talk about David only mentioned him 4 times. But this is another thread, and I'd like to get back to the original subject if anyone is interested.

09-30-2012, 07:05 AM	#79
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	The bottom line is that the alleged masses of Muslims conquering from North Africa to Baghdad belonged to religion at a time when virtually NOTHING was known in writing about the prophet/messenger/rasullah mentioned in the Quran. This cohesion and religious coherence from North Africa to Baghdad within such a short period of time based on so little sounds hard to believe and needs to be re-examined.

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