Toto

Get real, Layman. I mentioned two of your list as having obviously existed. I didn't pretend that covered the entire list.

Tell me more about the Magi. What did Joseph and Mary do with the valuable gifts? Why did Joseph have to work as a carpenter with all that wealth?

Layman

You ignored the entire list and purported to make some point about two on the list. It was very misleading.

I already answered you. Should I report you to a moderator for harassing me? Oh yeah.

Like I said Toto. I don't know. I could only speculate. Used it to hide out for a few years in another country. Saved it for Jesus' ministry. Gave it to the poor over the years. We have no data.

See above.

Soul Invictus

All this bantering back and forth is getting us nowhere.

Layman,

I would be interested in your position as to the existence of the Magi, or if they were the invention of creative writing.

Your thoughts?

SI

Amaleq13

When someone asks: Would Christians have invented people who did not exist in reality?

Replying with a list of apparently historical people mentioned in Christian writings in no way addresses the question.

It addresses and denies a different question: Did Christians invent all the people they mention in their writings?

Even if we assume every person listed by Layman was historical, the question has not been answered because there does not appear to be any good reason they might have included both historical and fictional characters.

We might also ask a related question: Would Christians place historical figures in fictional contexts?

This, too, would not be addressed by the list provided.

Haran

What, specifically, about the Magi (i.e. simply magicians/wise men/seers...nothing fancy...) from the east is being questioned?

Why would they not have existed? It seems that Magicians existed in many of the surrounding cultures. Why would they not have existed in "the east"?

Do a word search on TLG for μαγοι/ μαγος / μαγον/ μαγους, etc. The words used by Matthew were used by other authors like Xenophon who appears to have written of Magi (i.e. Magicians) from the east (i.e. Persia).

Even Acts 13:6-8 refers to both "Bar-Jesus", "a Jewish Mage", and a certain "Elymas the Mage".

In the LXX, μαγος appears to translate the Hebrew term חרתם, which means "...sense of one possessed of occult knowledge, diviner, astrologer, magician -- 1. magicians of Egypt. 2. magicians of Babylon. " according to the BDB lexicon.

So, are you saying that Magicians from the East didn't exist and Matthew made them up? I find that highly implausible in light of all the places that Magicians are mentioned.

Steven Carr

I see you also can produce no evidence that any Magi visited Jesus.

I wonder if Tolstoy invented any characters in 'War and Peace' Responding that Napoleon and Alexander existed does not answer the question.

Steven Carr

The Koran (Sura 18) has a story about the people of the cave.

These people went into a cave (somewhere near Ephesus) to flee persecution, and emerged a century later, still alive.

Is there any evidence that these people existed?

Would Muslims, like Christians, invent non-existent people?

Or is this the sort of Islamic story that no Christian would invent?

Haran

That is not what you originally asked in the OP. (Why am I not surprised?)

My post provided evidential reasons for believing that Magi such as those in Matthew certainly did exist in many cultures and even in "the East". This answered the questions which originally appeared to be yet another of the many ridiculous and wasted attempts on the part of some to show that everything the Bible must be fictional.

What kind of question was that? Who knows?

I will assume that this is specifically meant in reference to Matthew. You obviously seem to believe so. I believe it unlikely.

Regardless, since we appear to be changing focus from the OP at this point, there are many events in the Bible for which there is no current extra-biblical "evidence" (the same goes for many other works of antiquity...). That does not mean that these these events did not happen. It simply means that there is only one currently extant source for this information, the Bible. If you don't believe it that is certainly your prerogative. Others do and will believe it in spite the many groundless accusations made against it.

Steven Carr

Here is my opening post, where I asked for evidence that these people existed (the people who visited Jesus)

Did the Magi exist?

Is there any evidence that these people existed?

Would Christians have invented people who did not exist in reality?

And where on earth did I try to show that everything in the Bible must be fictional? Haran's rhetoric is really tiresome at times.



I suppose Haran is going to resurrect the old Christian myth that people existed who denied the historicity of Pilate.

There is no evidence that any Magi visited Jesus, and the lack of confirmation in other Christian stories, and the astonishment in Mark that there is anything special about Jesus rather confirms that he had an ordinary birth.

I am not a Middle Eastern peasant girl, but it Magi visited me, I would not be as surprised as Mary was when Jesus started doing extraordinary things. I would rather have expected it.

Haran

Believe me, the feeling is mutual (with respect to your own rhetoric).

Tell me that you are not trying to ask questions in such a way as to suggest that the story of the Magi in Matthew is fictional, Steven.

"old Christian myth"

What was that about my rhetoric?

I'll remain agnostic on that one. I have no idea, nor do I really care because I believe Pilate was historical.

Yes there is. Matthew.

Unless of course you don't believe it and you are trying to insinuate that it is a fictional account.

What's the next target? Let's see...Jesus, Paul, the Magi, ??? Who's next? How utterly absurd this line of thinking is... We might as well believe nothing of our history, especially those things for which only one source remains.