Freethought & Rationalism Archive

schriverja · 11-15-2010, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryStine

This is a horse that I feel should have been beaten to death, but, strangely, I don't seem to hear much about it either from christians or non-christians. When I was catholic this used to bother me plenty in my private mind, but for some reason I never bothered to look for an answer from anyone and it never came up by itself.

In any case, the elephant in the room that I am referring to is Mark 9:1,

I don't believe I need to explain to anyone that this raises the problem of seeming to present a biblical prophecy that has not been and cannot be fulfilled. I imagine that there are ways of explaining this away but people don't seem to be trying as hard as they should to do this. In fact, a commentary in my New American Bible says,

So, this commentator claims that the passage most likely refers to exactly what it seems to refer to, i.e. the second coming. This is a supposed keeper of the faith claiming that the impossible meaning is the correct meaning. Does this person believe that the end of the world has, in fact, already happened 2 millenia ago?

Anyway, I just wanted to see what thoughts people had on this. Is there something that I am not seeing? Is the reason I don't hear much about this because the answer is blaringly obvious and I am just too dumb, ignorant or inattentive to see it? What explanations exist out there? What have you heard said? Any christians out there who can comment?

Quote:

He also said to them, 'Amen I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God has come in power.

Hi, my fellow Georgian. This is a rather easy task here. Did you notice the word til (until)? That means that some of the believers would die after Christ returns...But wait, thats a contradiction as the Gospels says believers will not die when He returns and certainly not afterwards. So what does it really means? The Apostles were the only ones standing there. Later on we find the meaning of this scripture such as in the book of Revelation where John saw the Return of Christ and dies afterwards.

Some would see his return in visions and die afterwards. What is a prophetic vision? It is Revelation of an imminent event given in advance.

They saw...and died afterwards.

So John counts as "some" people?

Godwithus · 11-15-2010, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Hi, my fellow Georgian. This is a rather easy task here. Did you notice the word til (until)? That means that some of the believers would die after Christ returns...But wait, thats a contradiction as the Gospels says believers will not die when He returns and certainly not afterwards. So what does it really means? The Apostles were the only ones standing there. Later on we find the meaning of this scripture such as in the book of Revelation where John saw the Return of Christ and dies afterwards.

Some would see his return in visions and die afterwards. What is a prophetic vision? It is Revelation of an imminent event given in advance.

They saw...and died afterwards.

Something is very wrong here.

You say a "prophetic vision" is a Revelation of an IMMINENT event given in advance.

What imminent event did John see?

It is now 2000 years.

So? That doesnt mean its not going to happen. It took 2000 years for the restoration of Israel also, and yet there she is standing proudly. Perhaps the arrival of the Messiah is soon to follow.

Godwithus · 11-15-2010, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Hi, my fellow Georgian. This is a rather easy task here. Did you notice the word til (until)? That means that some of the believers would die after Christ returns...But wait, thats a contradiction as the Gospels says believers will not die when He returns and certainly not afterwards. So what does it really means? The Apostles were the only ones standing there. Later on we find the meaning of this scripture such as in the book of Revelation where John saw the Return of Christ and dies afterwards.

Some would see his return in visions and die afterwards. What is a prophetic vision? It is Revelation of an imminent event given in advance.

They saw...and died afterwards.

So John counts as "some" people?

John, wasnt the only one. He may have been the only to write about his vision in vivid detail as he was commissioned to write Revelation. Remember the only ones standing there with Jesus was the Apostles.

Ktotwf · 11-15-2010, 02:42 PM

Every generation of Christians believed that the end of days would be within their lifetime. You can see in certain passages of the Bible a certain amount of retconning happening because the prophecy of imminent return had not come true.

The signs of his return are extremely generic and purposely vague (War and rumors of war, etc.) because IT IS THE MINDSET that is important! The mindset that Jesus might return at ANY moment gives the idea of the Second Coming its power.

arnoldo · 11-15-2010, 03:28 PM

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Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

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Originally Posted by HarryStine

I see. We have Christians believing that the second coming already happened.

There were Christians back in pseudo-Paul's day that thought it already happened:

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Originally Posted by 2 Thessalonians 2

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,

2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

The idea that some people may not die is also referenced in John 21:21-23

Quote:

Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

and 1 Corinthians 15;51-53

Quote:

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

James_M · 11-15-2010, 06:33 PM

Hi Harry.

I have always believed that whatever event it was that the author had Jesus referring to (the "kingdom coming") that the destruction of the temple and the fall of Judea were somehow part of it. Both this and the Olivet discourse seem to be referring to the 70CE revolt and aftermath. My only reason for thinking that is that it is a big event coming up in the timeline, about a generation from the time of Jesus's speaking this.

I certainly do notaccept it as genuine prophecy since the author is writing after the fact and knows the recent history of that area.

Godwithus · 11-15-2010, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James_M

Hi Harry.

I have always believed that whatever event it was that the author had Jesus referring to (the "kingdom coming") that the destruction of the temple and the fall of Judea were somehow part of it. Both this and the Olivet discourse seem to be referring to the 70CE revolt and aftermath. My only reason for thinking that is that it is a big event coming up in the timeline, about a generation from the time of Jesus's speaking this.

I certainly do notaccept it as genuine prophecy since the author is writing after the fact and knows the recent history of that area.

So if the writer is writing after the destruction of the Second Temple, then how can you account for the fact that Jesus didnt return during that period? Either it was written before the event, or the prophecy is not about AD 70. Take your pick.

judge · 11-16-2010, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwithus

Quote:

Originally Posted by James_M

Hi Harry.

I have always believed that whatever event it was that the author had Jesus referring to (the "kingdom coming") that the destruction of the temple and the fall of Judea were somehow part of it. Both this and the Olivet discourse seem to be referring to the 70CE revolt and aftermath. My only reason for thinking that is that it is a big event coming up in the timeline, about a generation from the time of Jesus's speaking this.

I certainly do notaccept it as genuine prophecy since the author is writing after the fact and knows the recent history of that area.

So if the writer is writing after the destruction of the Second Temple, then how can you account for the fact that Jesus didnt return during that period? Either it was written before the event, or the prophecy is not about AD 70. Take your pick.

The prohecy, as far as I can see, doesnt say Jesus would return. That is just what christians say it says, not, as far as I can see, what it does say.

schriverja · 11-16-2010, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwithus

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

So John counts as "some" people?

John, wasnt the only one. He may have been the only to write about his vision in vivid detail as he was commissioned to write Revelation. Remember the only ones standing there with Jesus was the Apostles.

So now you are just writing whatever you want between the lines to make this a "prophecy"??

It's also worth noting that the John, son of Zebedee, was probably not the John who wrote Revelation, so even your first point seems to be a stretch...

Doug Shaver · 11-16-2010, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwithus

Perhaps the arrival of the Messiah is soon to follow.

Yeah, perhaps. And perhaps the next person who offers to sell me a bridge really owns one that he can legally sell.

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11-15-2010, 02:42 PM	#24
Ktotwf Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,936	Every generation of Christians believed that the end of days would be within their lifetime. You can see in certain passages of the Bible a certain amount of retconning happening because the prophecy of imminent return had not come true. The signs of his return are extremely generic and purposely vague (War and rumors of war, etc.) because IT IS THE MINDSET that is important! The mindset that Jesus might return at ANY moment gives the idea of the Second Coming its power.

11-15-2010, 06:33 PM	#26
James_M Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: USA Posts: 35	Hi Harry. I have always believed that whatever event it was that the author had Jesus referring to (the "kingdom coming") that the destruction of the temple and the fall of Judea were somehow part of it. Both this and the Olivet discourse seem to be referring to the 70CE revolt and aftermath. My only reason for thinking that is that it is a big event coming up in the timeline, about a generation from the time of Jesus's speaking this. I certainly do notaccept it as genuine prophecy since the author is writing after the fact and knows the recent history of that area.

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