RAFH

And around and around he goes, where he'll stop nobody quite knows. It is? What 'greater "spiritual reality". You have yet to demonstrate its existence. You talk about it, but you don't describe it, how it works, where it is, what it is. You have not presented a coherent model of reality which is based on its existence and which also continues to accurately and reliably describe that reality we experience. You have not presented anything other than assertions and now you are stooping to quoting a discredited book written by barely people with extremely limited and highly distorted perceptions of reality. Sorry, that doesn't quite demonstrate anything other than the emptiness of your assertions. You just go around and around, recycling the same tired old arguments. Its getting old. If you have nothing else to offer, then accept what you have to offer has been offered and rejected. Repeatedly offering it will neither improve the quality nor add to the content.

Well, at least we agree on something.

Depends on your definition of consciousness. With dreams, I'd say no, because at the time, the brain in not consciously receiving sensory information, at least the part participating in the dream. That part is reviewing memories. Experience that was already sensed and has been stored. While those were real perceptions at the times they were perceived, they may or may not have been real experiences and they certainly are not real experiences now. Much of your argument is similar to Zeno's Paradoxes which ignore the continuum of time. You seem to fixate on static moments rather than as time being fluid and continuous. In any case, the active brain is not effectively conscious during dreaming as it is not actively receiving current sensory input. That's not to say such input may not creep in or intrude, it often does because the brain is rarely totally 'off'.

As for mythological events, what are you talking about 'experiencing' such. One does not experience mythology or mythological events. Mythology is discredited religion. It consists of presumably fictional accounts presumably manufactured by (generally) 'dead' cultures or at least ones mainstream cultures discount. I don't think too many people currently hold Achilles was invulnerable except for his heel which his mother, a sea nymph, failed to dip into the River Styx. Or that he was killed by a poisoned arrow to said heel shot by Paris, the bugger that started the war by successfully wooing Helen. I really don't see how anyone experiences mythological events, except perhaps in their imagination. Myths are often the outcome of imagination playing with real events from memory.

Imagination is not a magic thing. Its the ability of our brains to form images that do not exist. Its part of consciousness. When it can be controlled, it can be quite useful. I don't see what it has to do with spirituality other than some people imagine such to exist.

How so? Dreams are not real events. Yes, they do occur. And sometimes the experiences in the dreams did occur. But the dream is not a real experience of something that is currently happening in reality. You seem to have a problem with this concept. Dreams are like a story somebody tells you. Yes, the person is telling you a story, that's really happening. And, yes, it may be the events related in the story actually occurred. But they are not occurring as the story is told. They are not re-occurring. The telling of the story, the relating of events that did occur is not a re-occurrance of those events. Do you understand this? Dreams are a retelling of events. Its like seeing something on TV, unless its live TV, you are not seeing it happen, you are seeing an image of what happened. And its not happening in your 'magic box'. Its a simulacrum.

Myths are also not real events. At best they are retelling of potentially real events that have occurred.

In either case, neither dreams nor mythological events are actual reality. A book, even if its non-fiction, is a retelling of real events, not the real events themselves.

As noted above, that's not how it is. The brain is not conscious and awake though some input may be sensed and perhaps reacted to and perhaps even recorded. As has been explained, mind is a process. Its what your brain does. It receives stimulus from the various senses and reacts to it. It processes that datas. That reaction/processing can take many forms and often does, including recording for later use, analysis, comparison with memories, physical action ( both autonomous and voluntary), planning, etc. But getting back to the point, the brain is not functionally conscious nor awake. If you disagree, present your evidence.
that's correct, quite varying degrees. But not what you mean to imply. Wrong, see above. Processing of stored data is different than processing current data. Many of the same facilities are used but the data being processed is different. Which is the big difference.

As noted, we don't experience mythology. Its not a part of the dreaming process though one might dream about mythology. Dreams, as in those vivid mental experiences during sleep, are, as noted, your brain processing memories, stored data. Dreams, as in those imaginations of what we suppose, even hope, will or did happen are conscious processes of our brains. While they may utilize our memories they are not the same as the other dreams, which appear to be some sort of necessary housekeeping chore.

However, mythology is neither of those though it may result from either. It is typically, like most religious artifacts, an attempt at explaining reality. It often provides superficial explanations, primarily of human motivations or application of human motivations to natural events.

Which/what continuum are you referring to? There is no such continuum containing both dreams (both kinds) and mythological events (as explained, we do not have mythological experiences). Dreams (housekeeping) are processes of the brain primarily using stored data. Dreams (imagined events) are an example of our brains planning functions. Images of what we believe or hope will or did happen. Mythologies are sort of cultural dreams (imagined events). They are not reality though they may be part of our image of reality. One of the keys is others don't share them. When we dream of others we know and later discuss with them they don't tell us "yeah, wasn't that a weird experience we both had?".

Actually, I do have a basis by which to accept the "objective reality", it is called continual confirmation. By myself and, even better, in concert with others. If one continually tests their model against reality, and continually gets positives for accurate mapping of that model on reality, one can continually trust that model. When those positive mappings are confirmed by others, one can have even greater trust in those mappings. Like I said, when I point to what I perceive as a red ball and ask others what they perceive and they respond they perceive a red ball, I am getting confirmation from others my perceptions are not singular, but rather common to myself and those others. The more others that confirm that perception, the greater my confidence in that perception.

Now maybe those others confirming my perceptions are just artifacts. That's possible. But if they are doing things I wouldn't want them to, it would be kind of perverse of me to create artifacts that bother or even injure me. In any case, since all I have to go on are my perceptions, my interpretation of those that what appears to be is what is is the simplest and most sensible. All the other interpretations get very convoluted and rather difficult after very little consideration. In other words, reality is the most sensible explanation. At least to me and its my perception. Which all agrees with that perception.

However, you toss the solipsist charge about like its some bad thing and ignore it applies equally to yourself and your 'reality'. Perhaps even more so since you don't have others confirming your 'reality'.

You see, that's what evidence is all about. Confirming our perceptions. Like the old saying goes, "Reality is that which remains when you stop believing." What is still there no matter what you do.

RAFH

Ecstasy? Hey, its nice and all, but ecstasy? And where's the line get drawn between what induces ecstasy and what doesn't and who decides and how come everybody has different levels and causes of this ecstasy.

This just further highlights the absurdity of your assertions. And you still haven't produced the slightest hint of evidence any of this exists. All you do is grasp at straws and strings and hope something will support you.

RAFH

And if ... ... what? You have only one side of an argument here. Your IFs are getting out of control. If that, then what? Then ... ... Huh?

Wrong. Its not evidence of anything other than you claim you had some sort of experience. That's the very most you have evidence for.

What if I claim I am really a 2000' tall monster and I will rule the earth? Uh, so what. At best I am going to get sedated, secured and put under watch.

You keep making assertions, but you also keep failing to produce any support for them. Its really getting old and boring. Do you have any thing of value to offer? Anything new? Anything real?

breezanne

You only know of the "material" world through your "experience" of it. So don't knock experience.

Also, no one has yet answered my question...
Keep in mind that reality includes mind/awareness (which can be likened to spirit)... and that reality is nonlocal and "entangled" (intimately interconnected).