MarcelLionheart

Come on, guys, let's try to keep this civil and mature, okay? You're all very smart people and there's no need to resort to immaturity to prove a point. That's what the challenge of debate is for!

--Marcel

Eikonoklast

I don't believe I stated anything about "emptiness".

The ineffable "source" of your thoughts and actions.

Whatever guy. If you can't get on board with entheogenic substances it's no skin off my nuts. They can be a very powerful and efficient tool for insight for which there is a mountain of evidence. But you're allowed to have you're own opinion. Of course, there are many who disagree with you as well. Gee...you know, I wonder why so many religions participate in a form of sacrament where they partake of the "Body of Christ" to be in communion with God?

I'm sure you have extensive experience with these substances. So I will take that as the final word. :thumbs:

Yeah, some of us get to see through that wall and others of us just bust straight through the whole damn thing. I don't necessarily value taking the hard way just because it is hard. Although I do think that the training and background obtained through what might be considered "Traditional" training could be very helpful in preparing yourself for the experience. For some, it's simply not necessary. Either way I'm glad you feel that it was worth it.

I don't know. It looks like you're quibbling with yourself. That's what your girlfriend is for. I think the proper question is: who's posturing?


I'm sorry, I don't understand exactly what you're referring to.

David B

Well it's not easy to conduct a debate, or even a discussion, with someone who says he won't answer any of my qustions. I'd answer his, as best I'm able.

Which is a pity really, because I was going to ask him what a bona fide Zen master is (or what he, seemingly arbitrarily, decides to amend it to later).

Since I can't ask him with any hope of result, I'll throw out a few suggestions suggestions.

A bona fide Zen Master is:-

Someone who has decided that he is a bona fide Zen Master, and is.

Someone who has decided that he is a bona fide Zen master, and isn't

Someone who has been pronounced a Zen Master by a genuine Zen Master, and hence infallible in deciding whether someone has genuine Zen Mastership or not

Someone who has been pronounced a Zen Master by a genuine Zen Master, and but fallible in deciding whether someone has genuine Zen Mastership or not. In which case a claim of Zen Mastership may well be spurious.

Someone who has been pronounced a genuine Zen master by someone who is in fact a cult leader, whether knowingly leading people down the garden path, or deluded himself. Or, or course, herself, not wishing to appear sexist. But probably a him, inductively.

And, not wishing to produce a false quintotomy, to coin a word, something else.

Well, if making up what people say as you go along, as someone's done with both me and seemingly Eikonoklast, it seems to me that either the claimed Zen Master is not in fact a Zen Master, or that being a Zen Master isn't a state of being worth having.

David B (does not think that the use of cutting, telling, humour in the least inappropriate in discussions of this sort)