Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Aristophanes · 01-02-2013, 12:41 PM

Maybe names are a human concept that god considers primitive or meaningless. "Names are arbitrary, it doesn't matter what you call me."

Maybe it means "I am whatever you believe me to be", or in other words "I'm a figment of your imagination, Moses".

Or maybe god doesn't really know what or who he is himself? "I am whoever/whatever it is that I am, whatever that is." or "I am whats-his-face."

Mageth · 01-02-2013, 01:39 PM

Karen Armstrong's interpretation of "I Am What I Am" from "The Case for God":

http://sufibooks.info/Integral/The_C..._Armstrong.pdf

p. 39 (emphasis added):

Quote:

"The Deuteronomists had made violence an option in the Judeo-Christian religion. It would always be possible to make these scriptures endorse intolerant policies. But the Deuteronomists did not have the last word because other biblical writers worked hard to counter this idolatrous tendency. When the redactors had put the JE document together, they used E's more transcendent image of Elohim to modify J's unabashedly anthropomorphic vision of Yahweh. In E's account of the first meeting between Moses and the God who speaks to him from the burning bush, Yahweh reveals his name: "Ehyeh asher ehyeh": "I am what I am."45 Later Jews and Christians would interpret this to mean that God was being itself, He Who Is. But E did not yet think in these metaphysical terms. In his narrative, God may have been saying something far simpler. Ehyeh asher eyheh is a Hebrew idiom that expresses deliberate vagueness. The remark "they went where they went," for example, means "I have no idea where they went." So when Moses asked God who he was, Yahweh in effect replied: "Never mind who I am!" There must be no discussion of God's nature, and no attempt to manipulate God, as the pagans did when they called on their deities by name. Eventually Jews would refuse to pronounce the name Yahweh, as a tacit admission that any attempt to express the divine reality would be so limiting as to be almost blasphemous."

Jaybees · 01-02-2013, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

Karen Armstrong's interpretation of "I Am What I Am" from "The Case for God":

http://sufibooks.info/Integral/The_C..._Armstrong.pdf

p. 39 (emphasis added):

Quote:

"The Deuteronomists had made violence an option in the Judeo-Christian religion. It would always be possible to make these scriptures endorse intolerant policies. But the Deuteronomists did not have the last word because other biblical writers worked hard to counter this idolatrous tendency. When the redactors had put the JE document together, they used E's more transcendent image of Elohim to modify J's unabashedly anthropomorphic vision of Yahweh. In E's account of the first meeting between Moses and the God who speaks to him from the burning bush, Yahweh reveals his name: "Ehyeh asher ehyeh": "I am what I am."45 Later Jews and Christians would interpret this to mean that God was being itself, He Who Is. But E did not yet think in these metaphysical terms. In his narrative, God may have been saying something far simpler. Ehyeh asher eyheh is a Hebrew idiom that expresses deliberate vagueness. The remark "they went where they went," for example, means "I have no idea where they went." So when Moses asked God who he was, Yahweh in effect replied: "Never mind who I am!" There must be no discussion of God's nature, and no attempt to manipulate God, as the pagans did when they called on their deities by name. Eventually Jews would refuse to pronounce the name Yahweh, as a tacit admission that any attempt to express the divine reality would be so limiting as to be almost blasphemous."

Somewhere in the dim past I remember reading that "Yahweh" is best translated as, "The one whose name cannot be mentioned."

Diogenes the Cynic · 01-02-2013, 11:25 PM

The Hebrew is really a redundant repetition - Hayah hayah - "I am I am," or even more literally, "I am am."

One of my religion profs thought that this could basically be interpreted as "I am being," as in "I am existence itself."

Lugubert · 01-03-2013, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malintent

I was aware that millions of Christians can't even begin to agree on what the bible means, but I wasn't aware that the problem was this profound.. they can't even agree on the salutation? jeez!

You don't even have to go further than Gen 1:1 to find any number of theses on Bible interpretation. My 1:1 take is

In one (of the) beginning(s), the gods created the heavens and the earth.

I rather like it. No mentioning of a unique Lord, no single heaven/universe, but many possibilities. including the Hindu cyclical universe.

Also goes well with my view that Abraham's intended Isaac sacrifice wasn't annulled by any old angel but by a messenger of a disapproving superior God of YHWH's who thought that her subordinate had exceeded his limits.

Sheshbazzar · 01-11-2013, 09:48 PM

Almost all discussions of the 'I AM that I AM' stop at Exodus 3:14, ignoring Exodus 3:15-16

Quote:

15. 'And said Elohim to Moses; Moreover, Thus you shall say to the children of Israel;
"YAHWEH the El of your fathers, the El of Abraham, the El of Isaac, and the El of Yacov, has sent me to you.
This is My name forever, and this is My Memorial to all generations."

16. Go and gather the elders of Israel together, and say to them;
"YAHWEH the El of your fathers, the El of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Yacov, appeared to me, saying;
"I have surely visited you and seen what is done to you in Egypt;"

Nothing too ambiguous there. Yahweh tells Moses to tell the elders of Israel that Yahweh the El of their fathers has sent him, and that His name is 'Yahweh',
And this is to be His Name forever, and to be His Memorial Name for all generations. The 'I AM that I AM' phrase never again appears anywhere in Scripture.

The Name that does appear thousands of additional times is the distinctive name יהוה 'YaHWeH', or the shorter poetic theophonic Name יה 'YaH', 'Yahh'.
('YAH' in Exodus 15:2, Psalm 68:4, 102:18, 118:14 etc. independently 49 times in the TaNaKa)

stephan huller · 01-11-2013, 10:09 PM

Using the Greek as a guide - ego eimi ho on = "I am the one who is." Not a translation but a reference nevertheless.

Chili · 01-11-2013, 11:01 PM

"I am" is best left as it is, because even the essence of being is not right in that it must be manifest before it is. And so, I am means I am, and not my red hair because those are just my hair, and my hand just my hand.

What they are after is that also my intelligence is an attribute and thus I Am makes reference to the naked animal man as Being and that will include presence with or without red hair or even with or without a halo, while only those with a halo would say such a thing.

Without attachments may be best to say what 'I am' means, in the freedom of being as you are, but includes the knowledge of who you are as 'total Being,' and as such you will also no longer have a soul, and that is where the secret lies.

Sheshbazzar · 01-12-2013, 12:23 AM

In the end, according to Scripture, both Old and New Testaments, ALL men out of all nations, kindreds, and tongues will come to sing Hallelu-YAH! with one accord.

There will be no 'hallelu-gawd's' nor 'hallelu-lord's' nor 'hallelu-jebus's' in that day.

But YAH-YAHweh shall prove to be One, and His Holy Name One Name.

And the same Name shall come forth of every man in the praise; 'Hallelu-YAH'

Robert Tulip · 01-12-2013, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybees

I'm curious, but not curious enough to research the possibility that there already exist various "authoritative" English versions of that scriptural phrase: "I am that I am".

Anyone here know any "accepted" variations in various bible translations?

http://bible.cc/exodus/3-14.htm gives parallel translations, with about half showing "I AM WHO I AM" and half "I AM THAT I AM."

My view, with little basis other than its speculative elegance and beauty, is that we should look at all statements in the pentateuch with a view to how they might encode a precessional cosmology of the shift from the Age of Taurus (the golden calf) to the Age of Aries (the ram). The traditional astrological theme for Aries is I AM. So that would mean Ex 3:14 is saying 'I am the God of the Age of Aries', just as the story of Joshua at Jericho encodes ram power. Pure myth.

And Moses saith unto G-d, wtf? To which the Most High responded, watch out mate, or I will zap you again with the laser beam from the ark of the covenant like I did to Uzzah in various spots in the Bible. Or I will give you radiation sickness again like when we sorted the real Ten Commandments at Ex 34. No funny business.

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01-02-2013, 12:41 PM	#21
Aristophanes Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 4,729	Maybe names are a human concept that god considers primitive or meaningless. "Names are arbitrary, it doesn't matter what you call me." Maybe it means "I am whatever you believe me to be", or in other words "I'm a figment of your imagination, Moses". Or maybe god doesn't really know what or who he is himself? "I am whoever/whatever it is that I am, whatever that is." or "I am whats-his-face."

01-02-2013, 11:25 PM	#24
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	The Hebrew is really a redundant repetition - Hayah hayah - "I am I am," or even more literally, "I am am." One of my religion profs thought that this could basically be interpreted as "I am being," as in "I am existence itself."

01-11-2013, 10:09 PM	#27
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Using the Greek as a guide - ego eimi ho on = "I am the one who is." Not a translation but a reference nevertheless.

01-11-2013, 11:01 PM	#28
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	"I am" is best left as it is, because even the essence of being is not right in that it must be manifest before it is. And so, I am means I am, and not my red hair because those are just my hair, and my hand just my hand. What they are after is that also my intelligence is an attribute and thus I Am makes reference to the naked animal man as Being and that will include presence with or without red hair or even with or without a halo, while only those with a halo would say such a thing. Without attachments may be best to say what 'I am' means, in the freedom of being as you are, but includes the knowledge of who you are as 'total Being,' and as such you will also no longer have a soul, and that is where the secret lies.

01-12-2013, 12:23 AM	#29
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	In the end, according to Scripture, both Old and New Testaments, ALL men out of all nations, kindreds, and tongues will come to sing Hallelu-YAH! with one accord. There will be no 'hallelu-gawd's' nor 'hallelu-lord's' nor 'hallelu-jebus's' in that day. But YAH-YAHweh shall prove to be One, and His Holy Name One Name. And the same Name shall come forth of every man in the praise; 'Hallelu-YAH'

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