Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GakuseiDon · 12-16-2010, 11:19 AM

Dave31, do you have cites for those quotes? You have reproduced un-cited quotes before, which when examined have turned out to be wrong. This one, for example:

Quote:

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man"
- Thomas Jefferson

is actually a paraphrase:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson

Quote:

Those who live by mystery & charlntanerie, fearing you would render them useless by simplifying the Christian philosophy — the most sublime and benevolent, but most perverted system that ever shone on man — endeavored to crush your well-earned & well-deserved fame.

* Letter to Dr. Joseph Priestley (21 March 1801); published in The Life of Thomas Jefferson (1871) by Henry Stephens Randall, Vol. 2, p. 644; this seems to be the source of a misleading abbreviation: "[Christianity is] the most ... perverted system that ever shone on man".

Can you provide the cites for the others, please?

GakuseiDon · 12-16-2010, 11:40 AM

Quote:

"The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine."
- George Washington

This doesn't appear to be something that George Washington said or wrote. It appears to have been taken from the Treaty of Tripoli, 1797. From here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

Quote:

It was submitted to the Senate by President John Adams, receiving ratification unanimously from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797 and signed by Adams, taking effect as the law of the land on June 10, 1797.

The Treaty is much discussed in the 21st century because of the text of article 11, as ratified by the Senate:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.[3]"

GakuseiDon · 12-16-2010, 12:01 PM

Another one (I'll make this the last, but it's 3 for 3 at the moment). This is your quote. I've highlighted where it matches the source:

Quote:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, & I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."
- Thomas Jefferson

This is the source:
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/found...ligions40.html

Jefferson is discussing whether governments should legislate on religions. He cites the examples of two states that haven't done that, and points out that they have had no religious issues nor social ills as a result. His view: no laws are necessary, and any coercion by the government to try to enforce uniformity would be wrong. Note that your quote leaves out the part about uniformity (highlighted in red below):

Quote:

Government is just as infallible too when it fixes systems in physics. Galileo was sent to the inquisition for affirming that the earth was a sphere: the government had declared it to be as flat as a trencher, and Galileo was obliged to abjure his error. This error however at length prevailed, the earth became a globe, and Descartes declared it was whirled round its axis by a vortex. The government in which he lived was wise enough to see that this was no question of civil jurisdiction, or we should all have been involved by authority in vortices. In fact, the vortices have been exploded, and the Newtonian principle of gravitation is now more firmly established, on the basis of reason, than it would be were the government to step in, and to make it an article of necessary faith. Reason and experiment have been indulged, and error has fled before them. It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself. Subject opinion to coercion: whom will you make your inquisitors? Fallible men; men governed by bad passions, by private as well as public reasons. And why subject it to coercion? To produce uniformity. But is uniformity of opinion desireable? No more than of face and stature. Introduce the bed of Procrustes then, and as there is danger that the large men may beat the small, make us all of a size, by lopping the former and stretching the latter. Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a Censor morum over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth. Let us reflect that it is inhabited by a thousand millions of people. That these profess probably a thousand different systems of religion. That ours is but one of that thousand. That if there be but one right, and ours that one, we should wish to see the 999 wandering sects gathered into the fold of truth. But against such a majority we cannot effect this by force. Reason and persuasion are the only practicable instruments. To make way for these, free enquiry must be indulged; and how can we wish others to indulge it while we refuse it ourselves. But every state, says an inquisitor, has established some religion. No two, say I, have established the same. Is this a proof of the infallibility of establishments? Our sister states of Pennsylvania and New York, however, have long subsisted without any establishment at all. The experiment was new and doubtful when they made it. It has answered beyond conception. They flourish infinitely. Religion is well supported; of various kinds, indeed, but all good enough; all sufficient to preserve peace and order: or if a sect arises, whose tenets would subvert morals, good sense has fair play, and reasons and laughs it out of doors, without suffering the state to be troubled with it. They do not hang more malefactors than we do. They are not more disturbed with religious dissensions. On the contrary, their harmony is unparalleled, and can be ascribed to nothing but their unbounded tolerance, because there is no other circumstance in which they differ from every nation on earth. They have made the happy discovery, that the way to silence religious disputes, is to take no notice of them. Let us too give this experiment fair play, and get rid, while we may, of those tyrannical laws. It is true, we are as yet secured against them by the spirit of the times. I doubt whether the people of this country would suffer an execution for heresy, or a three years imprisonment for not comprehending the mysteries of the Trinity.

Toto · 12-16-2010, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

...
Anyway, there's just no reason to believe that Thomas Jefferson believed in a historical Jesus:

...

There are quite a few reasons to believe that Thomas Jefferson, like many other freethinkers of the era, believed that the gospels were myth, but that there was a (merely) historical man named Jesus. Jefferson may have entertained the mythicist proposal near the end of his life, but for most of the time that he believed that the gospels were myth, he also believed that Jesus was historical.

From Remsburg's Six Historic Americans

Quote:

For the man Jesus, Jefferson, like Rousseau, Paine, Ingersoll, and other Freethinkers, had nothing but admiration; for the Christ Jesus of theology, nothing but contempt.

In regard to Jesus believing himself inspired he interposes the plea of mild insanity. He says:

"This belief carried no more personal imputation than the belief of Socrates that he was under the care and admonition of a guardian demon. And how many of our wisest men still believe in the reality of these inspirations while perfectly sane on all other subjects" (Works, Vol. iv, p. 327).

Several of the preceding quotations are from a lengthy communication to William Short. In the same communication he characterizes the Four Evangelists as "groveling authors" with "feeble minds." To the early disciples of Jesus he pays the following compliment:

"Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Corypheus, and first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus" (Ibid.).

The published writings of Jefferson, which, however, do not contain many of his most radical thoughts, would indicate that he regarded Jesus Christ as a historical character. In a contribution to Frazer's Magazine for March, 1865, Dr. Conway shows that he was sometimes disposed to entertain the mythical hypothesis. Mr. Conway says:

"Jefferson occupied his Sundays at Monticello in writing letters to Paine (they are unpublished, I believe, but I have seen them) in favor of the probabilities that Christ and his Twelve Apostles were only personifications of the sun and the twelve signs of the Zodiac."

This was the opinion held by Paine during the last years of his life.

show_no_mercy · 12-16-2010, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

Other prominent early Americans made these comments:...

What do these comments have to do with mythicism? Jews think that Christianity is bullshit too, does that make all Jews mythicists?

aa5874 · 12-16-2010, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

Other prominent early Americans made these comments:...

What do these comments have to do with mythicism? Jews think that Christianity is bullshit too, does that make all Jews mythicists?

There is CREDIBLE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE that JEWS existed in the 1st century but NONE for Jesus.

There was a JEWISH WAR c 70 ce.

Russellonius · 12-16-2010, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Our sister states of Pennsylvania and New York, however, have long subsisted without any establishment at all. The experiment was new and doubtful when they made it. It has answered beyond conception. They flourish infinitely.

Jefferson did have a low opinion of Christians outside of his deist affiliation. And he was among the founding fathers who thought universal free public education would soon suppress the more conservative sects.

Only Tom Paine realized that an unregulated religious free market would flourish as a result of multiple firms competing by innovation and entrepreneurship increasing quality of, quantity of, and demand for the products.

State regulation of the religious market results in less religious economic activity due to lower quality and limited consumer choice. In practice one of the best ways to reduce the religious vigor of a nation is for the state to sponsor a particular religious firm and for the clergy to be unionized government employees.

Education correlates more to consumer preference between brands than to the decision whether to buy:
http://religions.pewforum.org/comparisons#

Jefferson followed the normal trend of the well-educated and well-to-do preferring a more liberal religious product. Liberal religious innovation generally requires old money because it does not attract much new money.

trendkill · 12-16-2010, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by trendkill

Erm, right. I think I'm going to need a better source than that.

From the writings of Jefferson that I (and everybody else) can see, Jefferson believed Jesus existed (and that he taught excellent morals), but that the supernatural parts of his story were made up. The original title of the Jefferson Bible was "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth". From that alone it appears that he thought Jesus 1. lived and 2. was from Nazareth.

It matters NOT what people believe. It is the EVIDENCE that MATTERS.

Even in court trials with DIRECT evidence, with audio and video recordings, and EYEWITNESSES, some people BELIEVE quite the opposite and will argue AGAINST the EVIDENCE.

There is just NO credible evidence, No credible historical source, in ALL EXTANT Antiquity that Jesus was KNOWN to be a MERE MAN and did actually have a KNOWN human father.

Irrelevant. The topic is not the evidence of Jesus's existence. This thread is about a specific article which makes claims about views held by George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. Those views are within the scope of the topic. Your views on Jesus mythicism are not.

No Robots · 12-16-2010, 06:42 PM

I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other.--Jefferson to Rush

GakuseiDon · 12-17-2010, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other.--Jefferson to Rush

Something else: Looking at that link, Jefferson also wrote:

II. Jews. 1. Their system was Deism; that is, the belief of one only God...
...
[Jesus] corrected the Deism of the Jews, confirming them in their belief of one only God, and giving them juster notions of his attributes and government.

That's an interesting use of the term "Deism", which doesn't appear to match the modern definition. Was the definition different 200 years ago?

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12-16-2010, 06:42 PM	#19
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other.--Jefferson to Rush

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