Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doug Shaver · 07-30-2008, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

I didn't write it, but it satisfies the challenge except for the fact that I didn't write it myself.

I don't know which one you're referring to now, but I checked all your links earlier.

It makes no difference who wrote any of them. None of them meets all the conditions specified in the challenge.

gregor · 07-30-2008, 08:51 AM

aChristian

Please read what you post. Your second link fails the challenge in its VERY FIRST paragraph:

"a 1 Now late on the sabbath day,

b 1 And when the sabbath was past,

c on the first day of the week, {a as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week,}"

Contradiction # 1

"c at early dawn, d while it was yet dark, cometh {a came}"

Contradiction # 2

* * * snip * * *

b 2 And very early on the first day of the week, they come to the tomb when the sun was risen."

Ref Contradiction # 1 and # 2

Is it Saturday or Sunday?

Is is light or dark?

The Crosswalk site just throws them together; contradictions and all, with a few editorial comments.

Toto · 07-30-2008, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Not true - there are lots of textual variants, some of them highly significant.

Again, not true. The first person to identify the authors of these gospels was Irenaeus, writing around 180 CE.

What are the names of these people?

You are leaving out Papias who knew John, Clement who likely knew some of the disciples and quotes extensively from them, Polycarp who was John's disciple, Irenaeus, etc.

Papias does not give any indication that he has read any canonical gospels, and mentions only Mark and Matthew - but his description does not fit the gospels that we have.

Where exactly does Clement name the authors of the gospels? Polycarp?

Adding a smilie does not help your case.

aChristian · 07-30-2008, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregor

aChristian

Please read what you post. Your second link fails the challenge in its VERY FIRST paragraph:

"a 1 Now late on the sabbath day,

b 1 And when the sabbath was past,

c on the first day of the week, {a as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week,}"

Contradiction # 1

"c at early dawn, d while it was yet dark, cometh {a came}"

Contradiction # 2

* * * snip * * *

b 2 And very early on the first day of the week, they come to the tomb when the sun was risen."

Ref Contradiction # 1 and # 2

Is it Saturday or Sunday?

Is is light or dark?

The Crosswalk site just throws them together; contradictions and all, with a few editorial comments.

It is early Sunday morning, it is dark, and the day is dawning. Matt starts out late on the sabbath, Mark starts out a little later when the sabbath is over, Luke starts at this point as well, and then Matthew continues from this point as the day changes. It sounds like it is going from dark to light as they walk. The Crosswalk site puts them in order without contradiction. The first verse comes first when it is dark and the day dawns as the verses progress.

thentian · 07-30-2008, 08:35 PM

To make things a little clearer, I'm posting the NIV versions of the gospels:

Quote:

Mark:

1When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. 2Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3and they asked each other, "Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?"
4But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. 5As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.

6"Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.' "

8Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

Matthew:

1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

5The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."

8So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."

Luke:

1On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. 2They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. 5In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.' " 8Then they remembered his words.
9When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. 10It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles. 11But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense. 12Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.

John:

1Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!"
3So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. 8Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. 9(They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
10Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
13They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"

"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."

16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).

17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.

I might have posted a few more verses from each of the gospels as there are also some problems about going to Galilee and still being in Jerusalem, but I think this will do for now.

The first difficulty is between Mark and John; Mark writes "after sunrise", while John writes "while it was still dark."

The next difficulty is the earthquake and the angel rolling away the stone which is only mentioned by Matthew.

The next difficulty is where the angel was when it spoke to the women, provided the men (man) in bright clothes were angels, or maybe a gardener, who could possibly have been Jesus in disguise. (It's a bit too entangled for me to figure out at this point.)

That's just for starters. Now, seriously, did God "inspire" these writers to write the story the way they did?

angelo · 07-31-2008, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregor

aChristian

Please read what you post. Your second link fails the challenge in its VERY FIRST paragraph:

"a 1 Now late on the sabbath day,

b 1 And when the sabbath was past,

c on the first day of the week, {a as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week,}"

Contradiction # 1

"c at early dawn, d while it was yet dark, cometh {a came}"

Contradiction # 2

* * * snip * * *

b 2 And very early on the first day of the week, they come to the tomb when the sun was risen."

Ref Contradiction # 1 and # 2

Is it Saturday or Sunday?

Is is light or dark?

The Crosswalk site just throws them together; contradictions and all, with a few editorial comments.

It is early Sunday morning, it is dark, and the day is dawning. Matt starts out late on the sabbath, Mark starts out a little later when the sabbath is over, Luke starts at this point as well, and then Matthew continues from this point as the day changes. It sounds like it is going from dark to light as they walk. The Crosswalk site puts them in order without contradiction. The first verse comes first when it is dark and the day dawns as the verses progress.

That's because Mathew and Luke had the writings of Mark in front of them and added or subtracted according to their point of view, and who they were writing their gospels for.
Forgetting for a moment that perhaps all the gospel writers had a document in front of them with all the sayings and deeds of Jesus, namely the document called Q.

gregor · 07-31-2008, 06:31 AM

Again, you read neither the bible nor your source with sufficient detail.

Which "version" has the darkest setting (i.e. begins the earliest)? Is it John? What does the Crosswalk word salad start with? How does Crosswalk's cutting and pasting of out of sequence terms meet the challenge?

Come on aChristian, demonstrate the faith of your cherished Chicago Statement and post a narrative compliant with the challenge.

aChristian · 07-31-2008, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

You are leaving out Papias who knew John, Clement who likely knew some of the disciples and quotes extensively from them, Polycarp who was John's disciple, Irenaeus, etc.

Papias does not give any indication that he has read any canonical gospels, and mentions only Mark and Matthew - but his description does not fit the gospels that we have.

Where exactly does Clement name the authors of the gospels? Polycarp?

Adding a smilie does not help your case.

Papias mentions both Matthew and Mark and talks about the gospels they wrote and Clement and Polycarp quote from the gospels all over the place in their letters.

aChristian · 07-31-2008, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregor

Again, you read neither the bible nor your source with sufficient detail.

Which "version" has the darkest setting (i.e. begins the earliest)? Is it John? What does the Crosswalk word salad start with? How does Crosswalk's cutting and pasting of out of sequence terms meet the challenge?

Come on aChristian, demonstrate the faith of your cherished Chicago Statement and post a narrative compliant with the challenge.

Using Crosswalk's notation, it goes abcacd, thus Matthew's is earliest by their harmony. I don't know what the Chicago Statement is.

Toto · 07-31-2008, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Papias does not give any indication that he has read any canonical gospels, and mentions only Mark and Matthew - but his description does not fit the gospels that we have.

Where exactly does Clement name the authors of the gospels? Polycarp?

Adding a smilie does not help your case.

Papias mentions both Matthew and Mark and talks about the gospels they wrote and Clement and Polycarp quote from the gospels all over the place in their letters.

The gospels written by Mark and Matthew that Papias described are not the gospels we have now. So Papias cannot support the historical value of the gospels.

Clement and Polycarp take us to the middle of the second century. They appear to be quoting from the gospels, but they never name them.

So we have no evidence of the gospels before the middle of the second century, and no idea who wrote them. No eyewitnesses. No reason to trust them.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-30-2008, 08:51 AM	#762
gregor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 932	aChristian Please read what you post. Your second link fails the challenge in its VERY FIRST paragraph: "a 1 Now late on the sabbath day, b 1 And when the sabbath was past, c on the first day of the week, {a as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week,}" Contradiction # 1 "c at early dawn, d while it was yet dark, cometh {a came}" Contradiction # 2 * * * snip * * * b 2 And very early on the first day of the week, they come to the tomb when the sun was risen." Ref Contradiction # 1 and # 2 Is it Saturday or Sunday? Is is light or dark? The Crosswalk site just throws them together; contradictions and all, with a few editorial comments.

07-31-2008, 06:31 AM	#767
gregor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 932	Again, you read neither the bible nor your source with sufficient detail. Which "version" has the darkest setting (i.e. begins the earliest)? Is it John? What does the Crosswalk word salad start with? How does Crosswalk's cutting and pasting of out of sequence terms meet the challenge? Come on aChristian, demonstrate the faith of your cherished Chicago Statement and post a narrative compliant with the challenge.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.