Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Loomis · 05-20-2005, 01:16 PM

Hey John A. Broussard,

I like Toto’s post above, and will toss this in for good measure:

Straight Dope: What's the deal with angels?

Loomis · 05-20-2005, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

Where did all that come from? Better yet, why was it necessary?

Like I said in my first post, look at Psalm 8:5. It (indirectly) says Yahweh created the ‘elohim,’ but the popular translation uses the word ‘angel.’

These ‘elohim’ are the very same gods who created everything back in Genesis 1:1.

What Christian or Jew is going to sit around and allow us to point out that their god created little subordinate sub-gods?

What Christian or Jew is going to sit around and allow us to point out that their religion is a derivative of Canaanite and Ugaritic El-worship?

They are going to behave like Believers. Right?

They are going to thicken the shit barrel and invent angels. Right?

In other words, it was necessary for Beleivers to invent angels so that they could save face when presented with the facts, and to conceal their religion’s polytheistic roots.

Clivedurdle · 05-21-2005, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Angelology had its heyday in the late Middle Ages, roughly from 1100 through the 1300s. Once the Renaissance bloomed, the New World was discovered, and the spiritual was replaced by the scientific, people no longer believed that the sun and moon and planets were angels, nor that they were kept in motion by angels. Angelology faded, replaced by invention and discovery.

From straightdope above.

Modern religious beliefs are a wonderful mish mash of bits of ideas from so many different places! If I had lived in 1200 when the main theory of everything was goddidit, backed up by an inquisition, I would construct an equivalent to particle physics based on the entities I had been told existed.

I love the contradictory descriptions of cherubim in theinerrant bible! what have apologists said about this, is it an example of evolution?

Quote:

Ezekiel (10:14) describes cherubim as having four faces and four wings and many eyes, as does the apocryphal book of Enoch. Revelation 4:8 says they have six wings.

darstec · 05-21-2005, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

From straightdope above.

Modern religious beliefs are a wonderful mish mash of bits of ideas from so many different places! If I had lived in 1200 when the main theory of everything was goddidit, backed up by an inquisition, I would construct an equivalent to particle physics based on the entities I had been told existed.

I love the contradictory descriptions of cherubim in theinerrant bible! what have apologists said about this, is it an example of evolution?

Quote:

Ezekiel (10:14) describes cherubim as having four faces and four wings and many eyes, as does the apocryphal book of Enoch. Revelation 4:8 says they have six wings.

The cherubim in Revelation had been promoted. As we see with the angel Clarence in It's A Wonderful Life, wings are a sign of promotion. God couldn't have just any old angel orchestrate the end, the finale, could he?

Loomis · 05-21-2005, 12:35 PM

Check out Psalm 18. Evidently one of Yahweh’s favorite pastimes was to blow smoke out his nose and ride around on the back of a cherub.

It looks to me like cherubs (cherubim) were a Yahweh thing, and not an El thing.

When Yahweh got combined with El the “cherubim�? and the “sons of the Most High�? got thrown into a blender and “angels�? came out.

I wonder if Chemosh enjoyed wearing those fake wings on his back?

Chris Weimer · 05-21-2005, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

I believe most angels were the kedoshim, or holy warriors who fought with the Israelites. I can't remember where, but there was a specific verse from Joshua which was quite explicit on this, and had something to do with covering your head, if I'm not mistaken, which was the source of the I Corinthians 11. The book I'm getting this from is Paul and Qumran.

Toto - or whoever - I still don't know how to make the amazon links set to IIDB, so you can change it to the proper link.

{to Infidelize an Amazon link -delete everything starting at the qid= and replace it with internetinfidels.}

Thanks Toto. I'll remember that from now on.

aChristian · 05-22-2005, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

Got it. They were created chiefly to be messengers. It's a bit surprising that they aren't mentioned in the OT, but the point is well made in Hebrews. I had the feeling that the concept of angels was rooted much further in the past.

Thanks for the reference.

They are mentioned in the OT as well and they are more than just messengers. Most of the comments I have read after my first answer are rather silly (not all). If you really want to know more about angels, get a good conservative Christian view. The website mentioned by Dolph Lambert is probably a good start.

Joan of Bark · 05-23-2005, 12:41 AM

Quote:

They were never gods of any sort, just an awesome part of God's magnificent creation.

Just like the serpent?

John A. Broussard · 05-23-2005, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

P46 is the earliest extant manuscript containing Hebrews. It is usually dated c 200 CE.

Andrew Criddle

Thanks. Your comment showed the value of this forum. It forced me to check out the date. It is third century. Probably late. And it's a fairly complete document which includes more than Hebrews.

John A. Broussard · 05-23-2005, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Hey John A. Broussard,

I like Toto’s post above, and will toss this in for good measure:

Straight Dope: What's the deal with angels?

Thanks for the reference. It answered my questions--and much, much more. Absolutely fascinating.

I strongly recommend it to anyone who has even a passing interest in the concept of angels.

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05-20-2005, 01:16 PM	#21
Loomis Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: The recesses of Zaphon Posts: 969	Hey John A. Broussard, I like Toto’s post above, and will toss this in for good measure: Straight Dope: What's the deal with angels?

05-21-2005, 12:35 PM	#25
Loomis Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: The recesses of Zaphon Posts: 969	Check out Psalm 18. Evidently one of Yahweh’s favorite pastimes was to blow smoke out his nose and ride around on the back of a cherub. It looks to me like cherubs (cherubim) were a Yahweh thing, and not an El thing. When Yahweh got combined with El the “cherubim�? and the “sons of the Most High�? got thrown into a blender and “angels�? came out. I wonder if Chemosh enjoyed wearing those fake wings on his back?

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