Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TedM · 09-01-2011, 02:17 PM

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Originally Posted by Toto

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Originally Posted by TedM

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Originally Posted by Toto

Paul derives his authority in Rom 1

Paul's authority seems to depend on the Resurrection. He could at any time have bolstered this resurrection by referring to others' experiences, but he doesn't. His authority is his own experience.

I think you have misread that. To me it is saying that JESUS was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead.

That is how it reads to me and that would make more sense. Perhaps there is another passage more supportive that you can find..

Jesus was appointed by his resurrection, and Paul derives his authority/mission from the resurrected Jesus.

Yes, and as far as I can tell that has nothing to do with the verse in question or with the OP.

TedM · 09-01-2011, 02:21 PM

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Originally Posted by dog-on

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Originally Posted by TedM

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Originally Posted by dog-on

Or, it is simply A case of you reading it with a later understanding and the Catholics having done a great job.

How can it be 'out of character' when there is nothing to evidence that? Where else does Paul say how OTHERS came to believe in the resurrection prior to his conversion?

If there were such people, probably the same way Paul says he did. Through the scriptures.

Ah, but Paul never says he came to believe in the resurrection because of the scriptures. Rather he says God revealed his son in/to him in one place. In another he says 'have I not seen Jesus'. In a third he says 'last of all...he appeared to me'.

So, this idea of Paul and other believing in the resurrected Jesus solely from a scriptural conviction has NO BASIS and is in contradiction to the few references we have from Paul himself.

aa5874 · 09-01-2011, 07:49 PM

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Originally Posted by TedM

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Originally Posted by dog-on

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Originally Posted by TedM

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Originally Posted by dog-on

Or, it is simply A case of you reading it with a later understanding and the Catholics having done a great job.

How can it be 'out of character' when there is nothing to evidence that? Where else does Paul say how OTHERS came to believe in the resurrection prior to his conversion?

If there were such people, probably the same way Paul says he did. Through the scriptures.

Ah, but Paul never says he came to believe in the resurrection because of the scriptures. Rather he says God revealed his son in/to him in one place. In another he says 'have I not seen Jesus'. In a third he says 'last of all...he appeared to me'.

So, this idea of Paul and other believing in the resurrected Jesus solely from a scriptural conviction has NO BASIS and is in contradiction to the few references we have from Paul himself.

How did God reveal the resurrected Jesus to "Paul"?

Can't you see the Pauline LIES?

"God" cannot reveal the resurrected Jesus to "Paul".

Once Jesus was only a man then he could NOT have resurrected on the THIRD day.

The God of the Jews is a MYTH.

"Paul" is a LIAR.

The Pauline writers attempted to historize the FICTION of the resurrection.

1 Cor.15

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3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures,

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time...

"Paul" is likely the very source of the PACK of LIES about the WITNESSES to the resurrection of Jesus.

Doug Shaver · 09-01-2011, 11:55 PM

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Originally Posted by TedM

But where else does Paul need to reference them in order to justify the idea that Jesus really had been resurrected, in the minds of other people?

Everywhere else, Paul intimates that his word alone should be sufficient. That would make any hint of "You don't have to believe it just because I said it" out of character.

dog-on · 09-02-2011, 01:39 AM

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Originally Posted by TedM

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Originally Posted by dog-on

If there were such people, probably the same way Paul says he did. Through the scriptures.

Ah, but Paul never says he came to believe in the resurrection because of the scriptures. Rather he says God revealed his son in/to him in one place. In another he says 'have I not seen Jesus'. In a third he says 'last of all...he appeared to me'.

So, this idea of Paul and other believing in the resurrected Jesus solely from a scriptural conviction has NO BASIS and is in contradiction to the few references we have from Paul himself.

Ted, I am not sure whether you are doing this accidentally, but anyway:

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Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures

God revealed his son in Paul through the scriptures.

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Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God

TedM · 09-02-2011, 06:57 AM

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Originally Posted by dog-on

Ted, I am not sure whether you are doing this accidentally, but anyway:

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Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures

God revealed his son in Paul through the scriptures.

Paul doesn't say God revealed the resurrection of Jesus in the scriptures in that passage. He only says that the scriptures contain the gospel. That's not the same as being the source of information about the resurrection--esp when the part of Paul's gospel that was unique to him (it appears) was that of salvation through faith to all who believe. IOW the passage above is not specific enough to get to a source for how Paul -- and others -- came to believe Jesus had been resurrected.

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Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God

This more clearly says Paul's gospel message is revealed in prophetic writings (presumably scripture) but it doesn't tell us what his gospel message is. Is it that Jesus was resurrected? Is it that salvation is for all? Is it both? Which message is Paul referring to here?

If you look up Paul's other references to the mystery you find some more ambiguities, but you'll find some that very clearly tie the mystery to the 'salvation for all concept'. Here's the most clear reference I find:

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Eph 3:1-9 "1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles-- 2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST, 5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it HAS NOW BEEN REVEALED to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6TO BE SPECIFIC, THAT THE GENTILES ARE FELLOW HEIRS AND FELLOW MEMBERS OF THE BODY, AND FELLOW PARTAKERS OF THE PROMISE IN CHRIST JESUS THROUGH THE GOSPEL, 7of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God"s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. 8To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;"

Elsewhere Paul over and over ties his 'gospel' to salvation through faith for all--free or slave, Jew or Gentile, man or woman. That is what made Paul unique, and disliked by many fellow Jews, including Jewish Christians. This is what set his gospel apart from theirs.

But does Paul anywhere unambiguously say the source for himself and others of Jesus' resurrection was scripture? No.

Think about it: Paul hears of this man crucified and claimed to be risen. Others are saying they have seen it. Paul is aware of some verses that reference a Savior-Messiah--esp Isaiah 53, which portrays what appears to be a man who suffers, dies, and is resurrected for the atonement of Israel's sins. Paul then 'sees' Jesus and believes in the resurrection. Nothing unique yet. Paul, being very familiar with other verses in Isaiah and elsewhere, sees that there are prophecies that refer to the entire world being part of God's kingdom. He also sees how faith was rewarded throughout God's history. He puts two and two together and concludes that Jesus came not only to save Jews but Gentiles also, and that it is not works, but is the inner man--faith, that God rewards: Thus, salvation for ALL through faith in the resurrection of Jesus.

It's been 5 years since I looked into this, but if you are interested see my findings here
http://mypeoplepc.com/members/tedrik...top20/id5.html

Ted

dog-on · 09-02-2011, 07:13 AM

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Originally Posted by TedM

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Originally Posted by dog-on

Ted, I am not sure whether you are doing this accidentally, but anyway:

God revealed his son in Paul through the scriptures.

Paul doesn't say God revealed the resurrection of Jesus in the scriptures in that passage. He only says that the scriptures contain the gospel. That's not the same as being the source of information about the resurrection--esp when the part of Paul's gospel that was unique to him (it appears) was that of salvation through faith to all who believe. IOW the passage above is not specific enough to get to a source for how Paul -- and others -- came to believe Jesus had been resurrected.

Perhaps you really do not see what it is you are doing.

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This more clearly says Paul's gospel message is revealed in prophetic writings (presumably scripture) but it doesn't tell us what his gospel message is. Is it that Jesus was resurrected? Is it that salvation is for all? Is it both? Which message is Paul referring to here?

The gospel is that we are free from the law. The mechanics of which are revealed in scripture.

Really, this seems quite clear.

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If you look up Paul's other references to the mystery you find some more ambiguities, but you'll find some that very clearly reference the 'salvation for all concept'. Here's the most clear reference I find:

Quote:

Eph 3:1-9 "1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles-- 2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST, 5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it HAS NOW BEEN REVEALED to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6TO BE SPECIFIC, THAT THE GENTILES ARE FELLOW HEIRS AND FELLOW MEMBERS OF THE BODY, AND FELLOW PARTAKERS OF THE PROMISE IN CHRIST JESUS THROUGH THE GOSPEL, 7of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God"s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. 8To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;"

Elsewhere Paul over and over ties his 'gospel' to salvation through faith for all--free or slave, Jew or Gentile, man or woman. That is what made Paul unique, and disliked by many fellow Jews, including Jewish Christians. This is what set his gospel apart from theirs.

It's been 5 years since I looked into this, but if you are interested see my findings here
http://mypeoplepc.com/members/tedrik...top20/id5.html

Ted

Let's stay away from quoting Ephesians, as I think it was likely not written by Paul and it opens a whole other can of worms.

TedM · 09-02-2011, 07:25 AM

I"m not sure what your point is then dog-on. Find anywhere where Paul talks about how he knows Jesus was resurrected and how others knew Jesus was resurrected. As I said before I can't find a verse that says he and they knew it solely from scripture and I found 3 verses that seem to suggest otherwise.

dog-on · 09-02-2011, 07:27 AM

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Originally Posted by TedM

I"m not sure what your point is then dog-on. Find anywhere where Paul talks about how he knows Jesus was resurrected and how others knew Jesus was resurrected. As I said before I can't find a verse that says he and they knew it solely from scripture and I found 3 verses that seem to suggest otherwise.

Seem to suggest? Don't you actually mean "seem to suggest when read with the appropriate preconceptions"?

dog-on · 09-02-2011, 07:29 AM

How about we dig into the OT and see if we can find "the source"?

If such is possible, do you think that it is therefore possible that Paul and co. may have did as much?

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09-02-2011, 07:25 AM	#18
TedM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA, Missouri Posts: 3,070	I"m not sure what your point is then dog-on. Find anywhere where Paul talks about how he knows Jesus was resurrected and how others knew Jesus was resurrected. As I said before I can't find a verse that says he and they knew it solely from scripture and I found 3 verses that seem to suggest otherwise.

09-02-2011, 07:29 AM	#20
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	How about we dig into the OT and see if we can find "the source"? If such is possible, do you think that it is therefore possible that Paul and co. may have did as much?

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