Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ThinkingMan · 08-26-2008, 11:07 PM

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Originally Posted by Helpmabob

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Originally Posted by ThinkingMan

The above list is in NO way synonymous with your “abridged version.”

It is – inasmuch as we can’t follow the long list, neither can we follow the two short requirements. No matter how hard we try, the salient thing is that we can’t.Christ is the way.

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What “way out” are you talking about?

Christ is the way.

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What about Romans 6:1,2: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

What about that? Shall we do more bad that more good may result? It was misguided thinking then and it would be misguided philosophy now.

You say it is impossible to follow these laws, and that christ's actions make it unnecessary to follow these laws, but it is misguided not to follow these laws? How can it be misguided to not do something that is unnecessary and impossible?

ThinkingMan · 08-26-2008, 11:12 PM

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Originally Posted by sschlichter

I think you have really highlighted the difference between Christianity and other religions. Christianity is a religion for those who know they cannot adhere to their set of morals. (the object of faith for a Christian is to give up and rely solely on righteousness from Christ's perfect life instead of trying to become righteous on my own merit.) I.e. Christianity is for bad people, not people that think they are good.

Does this mean that if I can adhere to my set of morals then christianity isn't for me? I don't consider myself entirely good or bad, but I'm not about to "give up" on my own efforts to improve myself.

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Originally Posted by sschlichter

Handling sin in this way, to me is analogous to having AIDS. I can put make-up on the skin lesions, but it does not change the condition. it looks better to others which may make you feel better but still is fatal. you may even convince yourself that you do not have AIDS this way.

I don't think this is a good analogy. AIDS is an incurable condition and there's nothing you can do to get rid of it. Personal shortcomings can be overcome with diligence.

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Originally Posted by sschlichter

This is where God's demand of perfection comes in. He demands perfection but he also supplies it thru Christ. If Christ was only a man, he could only die for one other person, but as God, his righteousness can cover all. The law in most nations is that you cannot murder. You have to adhere to that law perfectly. If you only murder once, you cannot tell the judge, "I did not murder before and I will try not to murder again." No, it requires perfection.

Murder is an extreme example. If you were guilty of one instance of greed, laziness, or gluttony, or vanity, or cursing, or grudge holding, or quarreling, in fact most of the examples listed above, then I (and most rational people) would be able to forgive you. If god cannot forgive things this trite I would consider that irrational.

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Originally Posted by sschlichter

The notion that faith (accepting Jesus) is a mere mental ascension is a false one. It is likely the fault of Christians that you have this notion. In actuality, the message of Christianity is that you place your trust in the work of Christ for salvation but you also turn your life over to him for service and obedience. Book of James says it will look like this. (Jam 1:27) Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their misfortune and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

We Christians are all about the mental ascension of belief but we fail miserably at following Christ - I freely admit that. True faith yields commitment. (or it is likely not faith). I agree with you that a mere mental ascension will not increase your will or ability to please God, but faith that yields commitment will.

You say it is not important to have mere mental faith, but necessary to have actual commitment. Commitment comes from within, so what need do I have for god?

Joan of Bark · 08-27-2008, 02:27 AM

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Originally Posted by Helpmabob

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Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

How many times do I have to repeat this verse???

Mark 10:18: "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."

Read in context, this was Jesus’ response to a very proud young rich man who really thought he had followed all the commandments since he was a boy. The man regarded Jesus as nothing more than a teacher, and he was relying on his own good works to earn him to eternal life. He wanted Jesus to confirm his righteous position, but Jesus knew his motives. Jesus shatters the man’s misconceptions about how good he is. He has vast riches, which he will not share with the poor.

Some people knew He was more than a teacher, but others, such as this young rich man, would seemingly never admit this under any circumstances.

I've read the passage in context several times. Jesus says: "Why do you call me good?" and "No-one is good except God alone." What has that got to do with the young man and his riches? There is no connection between Jesus statement and the man's riches. Jesus statement was a response to the man's reference to Him as a good teacher. Jesus corrects the man's belief that He is good.

Joan of Bark · 08-27-2008, 02:30 AM

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Originally Posted by sschlichter

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Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

How many times do I have to repeat this verse???

Mark 10:18

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."

Perhaps you should keep repeating it to yourself until you understand what it means.

It clearly means that Jesus believes that no-one is good but God. It also means that Jesus is NOT God.

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Originally Posted by sschlichter

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Of course, God might get better results from us imperfect humans if he set a better example himself. Anyone who kills three thousand children a day with a disease like malaria can hardly take the moral high ground.

God may allow bad things to happen but he does not wish them so.

Then why doesn't he stop them? Or better yet, WHY DID HE CREATE DISEASES IN THE FIRST PLACE?

WVIncagold · 08-27-2008, 11:14 AM

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Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH

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Originally Posted by WVIncagold

Sin is bullshit made up by those trying to force their will on other people. How is eating shellfish a sin? Why should we stone your wife or children for wearing mixed textiles? And how about the fact that the sabbath does not occur on Sunday but on Saturday and every Xian group i am aware of do not worship on the sabbath? it is nonsense. I suggest you travel down the entire 600 and see just how pious you are NOT. only 144000 of you get to go to heaven anyhow so its only those who can adhere to those 600 and not sin. Basically your fucked simply by being born into the modern world and they drape a polyester blanket over your cotton jammies.

Many of the laws you cite only apply to Jews which make up about 0.002% of the world population including easting shell fish and Shatnez (mixing linen and wool, which by the way you do not get the death penalty if you violate this commandment).

I disagree HaRaAYaH if it is commanded and without the OT the NT has no meaning so Xians don't get a free pass. Just because they decide to be Jewish lite does not mean they are exempt. When they stole your religion they also must accept the baggage that comes with it and yet they do not. While i agree it is not the death penalty we are talking about what we are talking about is sin. What makes wool and cotton together a sin? Again I reiterate it is all about control. Sin is nothing but a control mechanism enabling the few elitist to reign over a mass public.

sschlichter · 08-27-2008, 03:26 PM

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Originally Posted by ThinkingMan

Does this mean that if I can adhere to my set of morals then christianity isn't for me?

yes, sure. If you are sin-less then you have no need for Christ. Do you always adhere to your set of morals? Romans 3:9-23 suggests that neither you or I can do that.

If you can make that case before God then go for justice. I personally, do not want justice from God. I am going for mercy.

~Steve

sschlichter · 08-27-2008, 03:31 PM

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Originally Posted by Chili

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Originally Posted by sschlichter

If this were true, would you expect to see evidence in the synoptics that jesus 'knew the plan'?

The plan is intuitly ours but requires us to walk on water before we get into the promised land instead of parting it to get there. The requisite here is that we must be reborn of water and spirit which equals incipient from God via the Annunciation instead of fiery evangelist.

In "The Spire" Golding told us that it is as easy as eating and drinking.

you are a man of much allegory.

Chili · 08-27-2008, 10:31 PM

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Originally Posted by sschlichter

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Originally Posted by Chili

The plan is intuitly ours but requires us to walk on water before we get into the promised land instead of parting it to get there. The requisite here is that we must be reborn of water and spirit which equals incipient from God via the Annunciation instead of fiery evangelist.

In "The Spire" Golding told us that it is as easy as eating and drinking.

you are a man of much allegory.

It's like a song to sing my friend and I like to sing.

Joan of Bark · 08-28-2008, 04:12 AM

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Originally Posted by sschlichter

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Originally Posted by ThinkingMan

Does this mean that if I can adhere to my set of morals then christianity isn't for me?

yes, sure. If you are sin-less then you have no need for Christ. Do you always adhere to your set of morals? Romans 3:9-23 suggests that neither you or I can do that.

If you can make that case before God then go for justice. I personally, do not want justice from God. I am going for mercy.
~Steve

Yeah, there's not much hope for justice from the being who gave us floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, malaria, polio, the Black Death, influenza, cholera, smallpox and Sudden Infant Death Syndrome.
:devil:

Helpmabob · 08-28-2008, 04:41 AM

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Originally Posted by ThinkingMan

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Originally Posted by Helpmabob

It is – inasmuch as we can’t follow the long list, neither can we follow the two short requirements. No matter how hard we try, the salient thing is that we can’t.Christ is the way.Christ is the way.What about that? Shall we do more bad that more good may result? It was misguided thinking then and it would be misguided philosophy now.

You say it is impossible to follow these laws,

For us, yes.

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and that christ's actions make it unnecessary to follow these laws,

Christ is the way, is what I said. You have changed this to: “the laws need not be followed”. It is misleading and only correct in limited circumstances.

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but it is misguided not to follow these laws?

No. The misguidedness arises in thought not action: “Shall we do more bad that more good may result?”. The actions follow. The sin condemns.

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Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

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Originally Posted by Helpmabob

Read in context, this was Jesus’ response to a very proud young rich man who really thought he had followed all the commandments since he was a boy.

I've read the passage in context several times. Jesus says: "Why do you call me good?" and "No-one is good except God alone." What has that got to do with the young man and his riches? There is no connection between Jesus statement and the man's riches. Jesus statement was a response to the man's reference to Him as a good teacher. Jesus corrects the man's belief that He is good.

Jesus does not say: “I am not God here” Nor does He say: “ I am not good”. In fact, read the whole of the bible. Jesus never says “I am not God”. For that matter he never says in simple words “I am God”. He was happy for people to follow Him and worship Him. This is because He was God. It is logically consistent with the words used in the verse in question.

When interacting with proud young people who thought they could do without Him as their God, his language was not necessary simplistic.

Would you have preferred more simplistic language?

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