Freethought & Rationalism Archive

AZSuperman · 06-30-2005, 01:33 PM

Most Christians consider all of Pslams 22 as a divine prophecy about Jesus; however, the whole chapter is full of problems:

(Psalm 22:1) "my God, my God why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring" Asserting that comparable statements by Jesus in Matt. 27:46 and Mark 15:34 are prophetic creates problems. First, Jesus would be contradicting Psalm 46:1, which says, "God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble." Second, was Jesus praying for salvation of his flesh or of his divinity? If his flesh, then his prayers were unanswered. If his divinity, the divine needs no salvation.

(Psalm 22:2) "I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent" This verse contradicts Isa. 42:2 ("He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street"), which is also applied to Jesus. Moreover, the sufferings of the speaker in Psalm 22:2 continued for a time. He cried in vain to God for help by day and night, whereas Jesus cried for a short period.

(Psalm 22:6) "But I am a worm (a "maggot" according to Strong's Concordance)..." Would Jesus call himself a worm or maggot?

(Psalm 22:11) "Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help" This indicates that if there were someone to help, he (Jesus) would gladly agree to be saved, which would have meant his death occurred against his will. How then can Christians say he willed it?

(Psalm 22:14) "...my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels" Why was Jesus afraid, since events were allegedly moving as he desired?

(Psalm 22:16) "...they pierced my hands and feet" Nails were driven through the forearms, not the hands. Also, nowhere in the gospels does it say the feet of Jesus were pierced or nailed to the cross. (Some crucified persons did not have their feet nailed to the cross.) Moreover, some scholars claim this verse should have been translated, "They cling like a lion to my hands and feet." What group clung to the hands and feet of Jesus? The Jewish (Hebrew) Masoretic text translates the verse as: "Like a lion they are at my hands and feet" (Psalm 22:17).

(Psalm 22:18) "They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture" "Part" and "cast" are present tense verbs that couldn't apply to Jesus. "Vesture" does not always mean clothing of any kind or property. As used here it appears to represent property, which Jesus did not have, according to Matt. 8:20.

(Psalm 22:20) "Deliver my soul from the sword;...." The description of his distress in the prospect of deadly peril, his worry in prayer, and his desire to be delivered from death and saved alive are unsuitable to Christ, who supposedly gave himself up to death freely.

funinspace · 06-30-2005, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenn6162

I was hoping to start a discussion on fulfilled prophecy. We know that the Psalms were written around the 10th century BC, so how could this prophecy be so amazingly accurate while being written so long ago? We know that a man named Jesus was crucified for claiming to be the Son of God, so this in my opinion is not the kind of prophecy which is unverifiable requiring faith to believe. Thoughts??

Others have covered the whole of Psalms 22, vice the quote mining by an apologist. It's always entertaining to see the non-theist demanding contextual support. "We" certainly don't know a man named Jesus was crucified… I, as a former Christian, for one do agree that a man from which the gospels arose did exist and died, but nothing more. The accounts we have are copies 100-150 years after the originals were made; which was 30-90 years after said events. Several of the authors could easily be second hand to the events, and none of the Gospel authors are know with any surety. So in the end there is little "knowing", but much theorizing/assuming. None of these comments is an effort to falsify your view, but to point out that yours is only "a point of view".

On the verses themselves, you really aught to get a better translation, and read the footnotes. Here's a good conservative Christian site/Bible translation (NET). I bolded the pertinent part.
http://www.bible.org/netbible/

Quote:

22:16 Yes,37 wild dogs surround me— a gang of evil men crowd around me; like a lion they pin my hands and feet to the ground.38
38tn Heb “like a lion, my hands and my feet.�? This reading is often emended because it is grammatically awkward, but perhaps its awkwardness is by rhetorical design. After all, men being attacked by lions do not usually worry about grammatical correctness. Perhaps its broken syntax conveys the panic and terror felt by the psalmist. The psalmist may envision a lion pinning the hands and feet of its victim to the ground with its paws, a scene depicted in ancient Near Eastern art. The line has been traditionally translated, “they pierce my hands and feet,�? and then taken as foreshadowing the crucifixion of Christ. Though Jesus does appropriate the language of this psalm while on the cross (compare v. 1 with Matt 27:46 and Mark 15:34), the NT does not cite this verse in describing the death of Jesus. (It does refer to vv. 7-8 and 18, however. See Matt 27:35, 39, 43; Mark 15:24, 29; Luke 23:34; John 19:23-24.) If one were to insist on an emendation of yrak (“like a lion�?) to a verb, the most likely verbal root would be hrk (“dig�?; see the LXX). In this context this verb could refer to the gnawing and tearing of wild dogs. The ancient Greek version produced by Symmachus reads “bind�? here, perhaps understanding a verbal root irk, which is attested in later Hebrew and Aramaic and means “to encircle, entwine, embrace�? (see HALOT 497-98 and Jastrow, 668). Neither one of these proposed verbs can yield a meaning “bore, pierce.�? It is better not to interpret this particular verse as referring to Jesus’ crucifixion in a specific or direct way.
39tn The imperfect verbal forms in vv. 17-18 draw attention to the progressive nature of the action.

So it seams that even some conservative Christian theologians do not agree with your "amazing" prophecy...

Skeptical · 06-30-2005, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZSuperman

Most Christians consider all of Pslams 22 as a divine prophecy about Jesus; however, the whole chapter is full of problems:

<much snipped>

Exactly my point. Most xians consider the passage to be about Jesus but barely any of it can even remotely be considered to be about Jesus even reading it in the light most favorable to the xian position. It's just not there.

Diogenes the Cynic · 06-30-2005, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenn6162

The Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced. Prophecy
Psalm 22:16c
"... they pierced my hands and my feet."
Fulfillment
Matthew 27:38
"And they crucified him ..."

http://www.messiahrevealed.org/

I was hoping to start a discussion on fulfilled prophecy. We know that the Psalms were written around the 10th century BC, so how could this prophecy be so amazingly accurate while being written so long ago? We know that a man named Jesus was crucified for claiming to be the Son of God, so this in my opinion is not the kind of prophecy which is unverifiable requiring faith to believe. Thoughts??

The two major flaws in your argument are that a.) Psalm 22 is not about the Messiah and b.) it's a mistranslation.
The Hebrew does not contain the word "pierced."

Moreover, the Hebrew Bible was used as a source for the authors of the gospels. They mined the Tanakh for verses which they believed could be construed (however spuriously) as Messianic prophecies or predictions of Jesus and constructed their narratives thusly.

Oh...and you're also wrong about when the Psalms were written. 10th century is way too early (and David didn't write them).

Diogenes the Cynic · 06-30-2005, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenn6162

Of course it would be easy to suggest that they are all fakes and forgeries, because it is easier to explain it all away. It is all a big conspiracy that has been going on for years, and all the authors of the books of the Bible are liars, right?

This is a complete strawman, it is not something anyone has alleged. You are simply being corrected on some factual errors. There is nothing to "explain away" because you have failed to make a case that a "prophecy" was ever made in the first place, much less that it was fulfilled.

Quote:

I am going to make this easier for all of you because I made a mistake posting, when the only time I have to respond is on my smoke breaks. I came here to see what this place was all about. I had heard that there was a deconversion thread going on. I am sure I won't be missed though. I will be praying that you all come to know Jesus. Lots of Love to you all :angel:

I'm sorry we all failed to be knocked out by your AMAZING TRUE PROPHECY but you have to understand, we've heard it all many times. You aren't going to catch us off guard with anything and a number of posters have a much greater knowledge of the Bible than the average layperson. If you stick around you might actually learn something. To be honest, I think I'm not alone in saying that I wish more theists and fundamentalists would hang around hetre. it not only helps to challenge us and keep us on our toes, I also think it's more fun to spar with people who disagree with me than to just sit around nodding assent all the time.

funinspace · 06-30-2005, 02:51 PM

Hey Jenn6162,
Forgot to say welcome to II!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

To be honest, I think I'm not alone in saying that I wish more theists and fundamentalists would hang around hetre. it not only helps to challenge us and keep us on our toes, I also think it's more fun to spar with people who disagree with me than to just sit around nodding assent all the time.

Do NOT! We prefer people that only agree with us

John A. Broussard · 06-30-2005, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenn6162

I came here to see what this place was all about. I had heard that there was a deconversion thread going on. I am sure I won't be missed though. I will be praying that you all come to know Jesus. Lots of Love to you all :angel:

I'm probably in a minority, but I think you are displaying considerable wisdom by not coming back. Hanging around with the wrong bunch could put your immortal soul in jeopardy.

And all because of a smoke break!!!

Matt the Medic · 06-30-2005, 04:27 PM

I'm holding back every urge in my body to post the photochopped smoking Jesus picture.

Paradox · 06-30-2005, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by intrepidation

I'm holding back every urge in my body to post the photochopped smoking Jesus picture.

Post it !!! Post it !!!

John A. Broussard · 06-30-2005, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paradox

Post it !!! Post it !!!

Fish around the humor section. You'll find it and several variations.

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06-30-2005, 01:33 PM	#21
AZSuperman Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 298	Most Christians consider all of Pslams 22 as a divine prophecy about Jesus; however, the whole chapter is full of problems: (Psalm 22:1) "my God, my God why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring" Asserting that comparable statements by Jesus in Matt. 27:46 and Mark 15:34 are prophetic creates problems. First, Jesus would be contradicting Psalm 46:1, which says, "God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble." Second, was Jesus praying for salvation of his flesh or of his divinity? If his flesh, then his prayers were unanswered. If his divinity, the divine needs no salvation. (Psalm 22:2) "I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent" This verse contradicts Isa. 42:2 ("He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street"), which is also applied to Jesus. Moreover, the sufferings of the speaker in Psalm 22:2 continued for a time. He cried in vain to God for help by day and night, whereas Jesus cried for a short period. (Psalm 22:6) "But I am a worm (a "maggot" according to Strong's Concordance)..." Would Jesus call himself a worm or maggot? (Psalm 22:11) "Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help" This indicates that if there were someone to help, he (Jesus) would gladly agree to be saved, which would have meant his death occurred against his will. How then can Christians say he willed it? (Psalm 22:14) "...my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels" Why was Jesus afraid, since events were allegedly moving as he desired? (Psalm 22:16) "...they pierced my hands and feet" Nails were driven through the forearms, not the hands. Also, nowhere in the gospels does it say the feet of Jesus were pierced or nailed to the cross. (Some crucified persons did not have their feet nailed to the cross.) Moreover, some scholars claim this verse should have been translated, "They cling like a lion to my hands and feet." What group clung to the hands and feet of Jesus? The Jewish (Hebrew) Masoretic text translates the verse as: "Like a lion they are at my hands and feet" (Psalm 22:17). (Psalm 22:18) "They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture" "Part" and "cast" are present tense verbs that couldn't apply to Jesus. "Vesture" does not always mean clothing of any kind or property. As used here it appears to represent property, which Jesus did not have, according to Matt. 8:20. (Psalm 22:20) "Deliver my soul from the sword;...." The description of his distress in the prospect of deadly peril, his worry in prayer, and his desire to be delivered from death and saved alive are unsuitable to Christ, who supposedly gave himself up to death freely.

06-30-2005, 04:27 PM	#28
Matt the Medic Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 9,584	I'm holding back every urge in my body to post the photochopped smoking Jesus picture.

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