mountainman

Overdone references to the 2nd century dating of christian manuscripts by LegionOnomaMoi, followed by his own sarcastic comments from authority on the endless halls of academics who support his positions necessitates a similar response.

In response to ...

I summarised the youtube video's essential points on the fly.

There is little doubt that behind the youtube video is a well researched book, and that LegionOnmaMoi is a well read person. The sarcasm from my perspective at least, is being directed at the positions being held, about the over-appreciation of the evidence for the mainstream chronology, and is not directed at the person of LegionOnmaMoi.

"All that is gold does not glitter.
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

mountainman

Mark was just part of the package. See Second Coming


Sounds like the faithful servants of Odysseus who labor patiently, steadfastly and in good conscience about the return of their lord and master.

steve_bnk

Tolkien is well established lierature with his his base in a thorough grounding in Europen myth and stories. The analogy to the gospel writers is not exactly complicated. Refute the analogy.

Fiction is fiction regardless.

Writers draw on the culture and resources of their life and times. What do you think the writers of the gospels drew on for cultural metaphors and themes? What do you think based on experience and observation, not what soemone else has written.

My Oxford NRSV commentary also cites the gospels as having a recognizable literary form of the times. It is a dating technoque. There are Christian authors today who write religious fiction based on Christian themes. What do you think their base is derived from?

If you have no sense of humanity and see it all as an intelectual abstraction then I can see why you have a problem. Keep in mind the writers of the gospels were not abstactions, they were real flesh and blood humans of their times with feelings, emotions, and a perspective.

The kind of people I likke are those who can carry a conversation. Music as metaphor. Improvisational jazz versus playing set standard pieces.

If you do not like what I say put me on your ignore list.

steve_bnk

There is an inherent problem in attemtimg to make literal dictionary like links in gospel literature. We do not know the cultural metphors of the times.

In the bible the number 40 for a duration comes up several times. Someone with a backgroud in Jewish histrry posrted in the past that 40 was likely a colooquial expression for 'a while'.

JC went wandering for 40 days or a few days.

According to the Oxford commentary the oft cited Christian reference in Paiul to homosexuality is likely a more general reference to pagan sexuality. The words in the orginal was likely a coloquial exptession the meaning of which would have been clear.

Literal analysis only gets you so far.

Horatio Parker

I'm finishing MacDonald's book(available from the NY public library for any NYers out there).

Most of the parallels are from the Odyssey, but some are from the Iliad. The events around the death and burial he compares to Iliad, primarily the death of Hector.

MacDonald does not dispute that the Septuagint is also a major influence. His argument is that the Jewish scriptural sources leave many loose ends which the Homeric influence explains.

It's fascinating stuff; I highly recommend it.

mountainman

From the WIKI page on Hector ...


The Gospel of Peter has Jesus being carried away from the tomb by two enormous beings, who's heads reached the heaven.


These parallels are fascinating, especially considering that Homer's books were AFAIK extremely well read in the Roman empire for many centuries.

Horatio Parker

MacDonald cites one inventory from a Greco-Roman Egypt library which listed over 600 manuscripts of Homer. The next highest number were by Demosthenes, at 83. Homer was apparently the first and foremost author used to educate.

This is very rough, but gives an idea of the major points:

Mark		Homer
4:35-41	Jesus preaching from a boat, sleeping then calming the storm	Odyssey 10.1-69	Aeolus; crew opens bag of winds while Odysseus sleeps
5:1-20	The Demon called Legion, the drowning swine, the possessed man refused permission to join Jesus	Odyssey 9.101-565	Polyphemus
6:17-29	John the Baptist	Odyssey	Death of Agamemnon
6:34-44	The loaves and fishes	Odyssey 3	Telemachus and Athena feasted by Nestor
6:45-52	Jesus walking on the water	Iliad 24	Zeus sends Hermes to guide Priam to Achilles
8:1-10	Second feeding miracle	Odyssey 4	Telemachus and Peisistratus feasted by Menelaus
9:2-10	Transfiguration	Odyssey 16.167-307	Athena transforms Odysseus; astonishes Telemachus
11:1-14	Securing the colt; entry into Jerusalem	Odyssesy 6 and 7	Odysseus lands in Phaeacia and enters the city
12:1-12	Parable of the Wicked Tenants	Odyssey	Odysseus returns and punishes the suitors
13:1-4 and 28-37	Questions about the destruction of the temple; parable of the fig tree.	Odyssey 19	Odysseus in disguise assures Penelope her husband is alive
14:1-11	Woman anoints Jesus	Odyssey 19.308-507	Eurycleia anoints Odysseus
14:13a-16	Arranging Passover	Odyssesy 10.100-103 & 105-16	Entry into Laestrygonia
14:35-36	Prayer requesting "remove this cup"	Odyssey 10.480-84	Odysseus asks Circe to send him home; asks to be excused from his journey to Hades
14:41-43a	Jesus wakes the disciples	Odyssesy 10.546-50	Odysseus wakes his men to leave Circe’s island
15:17	Jesus taunted; purple cloak; crown of thorns.	Odyssey 18.118-22	Odysseus in disguise mocked by suitors
15:37	Jesus dies	Iliad 22.362-63	Hector dies
Mark 15:42-16:2	Joseph of Arimathea receives Jesus body and buries it	Iliad 24	Achilles gives Priam Hector’s body.

These items have multiple points of comparison.

As a character, Jesus is more Achilles than Hector. But the author of gMark apparently preferred the imagery of Hector's death.

Solo

I thought this thread was to discuss Mark. The woman there pours the ointment over Jesus' head; she is not washing his feet (with her tears) and wiping her with her hair, like the one in Simon's house (Lk 7:37) was. But by all means, go on ....

Best,
Jiri

stephan huller

Another danger of texting and driving

Solo

It is fun, I agree and some of the parallels are indeed intriguing. Not the one in the video, mind you, but 'the stupid crew' of Odysseus and the 'nautical adventures' including the hydropatesis, may indeed have been borrowed and alluded to in Mark's mimesis of Homer. The allusions might have been camouflaged in a folksy tale told by a poorly educated Greek-speaker. The upsizing of the Kineret lake (7 miles by 4 miles) to 'a sea', and the Jesus' disciples hilarious battles with the elements there, looks like a typical Mark's slapstick. Porphyry commented on the size of the lake and the absurdity of the suggestions of violent, deep-sea storms, endangering lives of travellers. But it appears that he (and Mark if thought he was exaggerating the danger to mock the disciples), might have been misinformed about the weather patterns that indeed make the lake a dangerous body of water despite its small size.

Best,
Jiri