Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 09-04-2007, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Williams appears to be one of those who would like to see a unity of all religions as a good thing.

A trade-union of religious leaders, all privileged, and none of whom need bother believing in the religion to which they owe their position. Hmm. Not entirely sure that I see the appeal to the rest of us.

What I want to see is a few united services with Aztecs. A bit of plainsong, a bit of human sacrifice... yes, why not?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

andrewcriddle · 09-06-2007, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

So, largely from a process of elimination, and because of the fact that Mithraism was the predominant religion in the Roman empire, we can infer that the Church imitated (while replacing) the birth of the sun-god Mithra in choosing Dec. 25 as the birth of Christ.

Can you produce any evidence that the "birth of the sun-god Mithra" was celebrated in antiquity on this date?

FWIW Roger Beck in The Religion of the Mithras Cult... argues from the Calendar of Antiochus (Probably c 100 CE) for the birth of Mithras on 25th December. Beck claims (on circumstantial evidence) that Antiochus is linked to Mithraism and notes that on December 25th the Calendar says "birth of the sun light increases" (hHLIOU GENEThLION AUXEI PhWS)

Andrew Criddle

Ray Moscow · 09-06-2007, 10:41 AM

For solar deities, it's the logical time for rebirth.

As to actual historical observances, I don't know.

mountainman · 09-06-2007, 06:33 PM

From here:

POPE and VATICAN
- Pope comes from the Sanskrit word Paap meaning sin and ha meaning removes, thus Paap-ha means remover of sin. So Paap-ha was the title and the function of the supreme pontiff attached to the Vedic administration. And from this came the shortened word Pope.
- Every sage lives in a Hermitage which is called "Vatika", even the Vedic sage Paap-ha lived in his Vatika which is still now called "Vatican".
- Further evidence that the Vatican was once as Vedic post is found in the Vatican's Etruscan Museum. Therein is preserved and on display five Vedic Shiva-lingas, some of which the Vedic Pope used to worship, as well as images of Shiva with a Cobra raising its hood over Shiva's head. Many others are said to be hidden in the museum and in the cellars of the Vatican.

mountainman · 09-06-2007, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Why is xianity as an evolution of Pagan ideas so unreasonable?

Because they entered the world together like
an electron and its anti-particle the positron.

"PAGANI" appears first in christian inscriptions
of the fourth century, used by fourth century
christians to articulate the "religious otherness"
of being non-christian.

Any and all information delivered to us with respect
to the notion that christianity had a chronological
evolutionary period before the fourth century is
Eusebian and thus Constantinian.

Christianity existed before the fourth century
because we believe in Eusebius.

Whether or not you want to admit it, that
Christianity existed before the fourth century
may appropriately be described as an unexamined
postulate of "ecclesiastical history".

Roger Pearse · 09-06-2007, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Can you produce any evidence that the "birth of the sun-god Mithra" was celebrated in antiquity on this date?

FWIW Roger Beck in The Religion of the Mithras Cult... argues from the Calendar of Antiochus (Probably c 100 CE) for the birth of Mithras on 25th December. Beck claims (on circumstantial evidence) that Antiochus is linked to Mithraism and notes that on December 25th the Calendar says "birth of the sun light increases" (hHLIOU GENEThLION AUXEI PhWS)

Most interesting -- thank you! Does Beck offer a reason to reassign a statement about the sun (Helios) to Mithras?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

andrewcriddle · 09-07-2007, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

[

Most interesting -- thank you! Does Beck offer a reason to reassign a statement about the sun (Helios) to Mithras?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

He gives a cumulative circumstantial case rather than direct evidence.

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 09-07-2007, 11:17 AM

Quote:

And many solar calendar Midwinter celebrations still centre upon December 25th in the north, which was the winter solstice upon the establishment of the Julian calendar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Solstice

Might part of the problem here be that the thinking of Gregory in the mountains are climbed a step at a time speech be that it was practice to reuse existing religious sites?

Amedeo · 09-07-2007, 12:10 PM

Cumont (or via: amazon.co.uk), op. cit.

Quote:

.....Near the Flaminian Way, to the east of the Field of Mars, Aurelian consecrated a colossal edifice to the tutelary god that had granted him victory in Syria. The religion of state

p. 186

that he constituted must not be confounded with Mithraism. Its imposing temple, its ostentatious ceremonies, its quadrennial games, its pontifical clergy, remind us of the great sanctuaries of the Orient and not of the dim caves in which the Mysteries were celebrated.

Fig. 43.
SOL THE SUN-GOD.
Installed by Mithra as the governor of the world. To the right the globe of power. ( T. et M. p. 202.)

Nevertheless, the Sol invictus, whom the emperor had intended to honor with a pomp hitherto unheard of, could well be claimed as their own by the followers of Mithra.

The imperial policy gave the first place in the official religion to the Sun, of which the sovereign was the emanation, just as in the

p. 187

Chaldæan speculations propagated by the Mithraists the royal planet held sway over the other stars. On both sides, the growing tendency was to see in the brilliant star that illuminated the universe the only God, or at least the sensible image of the only God, and to establish in the heavens a monotheism in imitation of the monarchy that ruled on earth. Macrobius (400 A.D.), in his Saturnalia, has learnedly set forth that the gods were ultimately reducible to a single Being considered under different aspects, and that the multiple names by which they were worshipped were the equivalent of that of Helios (the Sun). The theologian Vettius Agorius Prætextatus who defended this radical syncrasy was not only one of the highest dignitaries of the empire, but one of the last chiefs of the Persian Mysteries.

Mithraism, at least in the fourth century, had therefore as its end and aim the union of all gods and all myths in a vast synthesis,--the foundation of a new religion in harmony with the prevailing philosophy and political constitution of the empire. This religion would have been as far removed from the ancient Iranian Mazdaism as from Græco-Roman paganism, which accorded the sidereal powers a minimal place only. It had in a measure traced idolatry back to its origin, and discovered in the myths that obscured its comprehension the deification of nature.

p. 188|

Breaking with the Roman principle of the nationality of worship, it would have established the universal domination of Mithra, identified with the invincible Sun. Its adherents hoped, by concentrating all their devotion upon a single object, to impart new cohesion to the disintegrated beliefs. Solar pantheism was the last refuge of conservative spirits, now menaced by a revolutionary propaganda that aimed at the annihilation of the entire ancient order of things.

At the time when this pagan monotheism sought to establish its ascendency in Rome, the struggle between the Mithraic Mysteries and Christianity had long begun. The propagation of the two religions had been almost contemporaneously conducted, and their diffusion had taken place under analogous conditions. Both from the Orient, they had spread because of the..............

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09-06-2007, 10:41 AM	#53
Ray Moscow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 1,255	For solar deities, it's the logical time for rebirth. As to actual historical observances, I don't know.

09-06-2007, 06:33 PM	#54
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	From here: POPE and VATICAN - Pope comes from the Sanskrit word Paap meaning sin and ha meaning removes, thus Paap-ha means remover of sin. So Paap-ha was the title and the function of the supreme pontiff attached to the Vedic administration. And from this came the shortened word Pope. - Every sage lives in a Hermitage which is called "Vatika", even the Vedic sage Paap-ha lived in his Vatika which is still now called "Vatican". - Further evidence that the Vatican was once as Vedic post is found in the Vatican's Etruscan Museum. Therein is preserved and on display five Vedic Shiva-lingas, some of which the Vedic Pope used to worship, as well as images of Shiva with a Cobra raising its hood over Shiva's head. Many others are said to be hidden in the museum and in the cellars of the Vatican.

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