Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sauron · 08-18-2007, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Now verse 2, "the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep," so observations 2 and 3:

Nope. Just two more claims. Three total now, and none with any supporting evidence.

Quote:

the earth was initially formless,

Except your citation does not say that the earth was formless.

Quote:

and void of all we see around us now, the surface of the earth was dark, and the predominate form of matter there was liquid (as here).

1. Except that genesis does not say "liquid"; it says "water." Molten iron

(per your citation) hardly qualifies.

2. And as we might expect, this citation likewise not not support your claim of a dark earth with liquid - of any kind - predominating.

Quote:

Make that three more observations, observations 2, 3 and 4.

No, it's three claims plus two citations that backfired on you.

lee_merrill · 08-18-2007, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dlx2

... a more appropriate translation of B'reishit bara elohim is "When God began to create..."

This however still implies a beginning.

Quote:

Perhaps the best way to translate the couplet would be "sea-drake and earthquake," which changes the meaning of the entire sentence significantly.

There's also an etymological link between the word you're translating as "unformed" (tohu) and the word you're translating as "deep" (tehom). So that sentence translates more closely as:

"The earth was dominated by Sea-Drake and Earthquake, and Darkness was upon the Dragon."

And which commentary supports this reading?

Quote:

"And the life-breath of God shimmered upon the waters"

And which commentary has this reading here?

RBH · 08-18-2007, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Now verse 2, "the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep," so observations 2 and 3: the earth was initially formless, and void of all we see around us now, the surface of the earth was dark, and the predominate form of matter there was liquid (as here).

Make that three more observations, observations 2, 3 and 4.

Erm, just who did those observations? And what contemporary records of them were kept?

RBH

Jubal_DiGriz · 08-18-2007, 04:10 PM

From the New Oxford Annotated Bible, often considered the most authoritative, scholarly single translation of the Bible on the planet. I'm posting this here so we can have a single, agreed up translation to comment upon, and keep the discussion going.

Genesis, Chapter One:

Quote:

In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw that it was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters” So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so. God called the dome Sky. And there was the evening and there was the morning, the second day.

And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered together in one place, and the dry land appear.” And was so. God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called the Seas. And god saw that it was good. The God said, “Let the earth put forth vegetation: plants yielding seed, and fruit trees of every kind on earth that bear fruit with the seed in it.” And it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation: plants yielding seed of every kind, and trees of every kind bearing fruit with the seed in it. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning, the third day.

And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth. And it was so. God made the two great lights- the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night- and the stars. God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, the forth day.

And God said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky." SO God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, of every kind, with which the water swam, and every winged bird of every kind. And God saw that it was good. God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply upon the earth." And there was evening, and there was morning, the fifth day.

And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures of every kind: cattle and creeping things and wild animals of the earth of every kind.” And it was so. God made the wild animals of every kind, and the cattle of every kind, and everything that creeps along the ground of every kind. And God saw that it was good.

Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

So God created humankind in his
image,
in the image of God he created
them;
make and female he created them.

God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” God said, “See, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything the creeps upon the earth, everything that was the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning, the sixth day.

Jubal_DiGriz · 08-18-2007, 05:02 PM

Let’s call these “statements”, not “observations”. Here is a condensed version of the Creation. Let’s deconstruct the hell out of this thing…

1. The earth was formless and the oceans were dark, and God was passing a wind over it.
2. Light was created and separated from darkness, and called Day and Night.
3. The first day passes.
4. A dome was created to separate the upper and lower oceans, and was called Sky.
5. The second day passes.
6. Land is created, and God commands vegetation to rise from the land.
7. The third day passes.
8. Lights in the dome…stars, the Moon, and the Sun…are created.
9. The forth day passes.
10. Fish and birds are created.
11. The fifth day passes.
12. Animals are created.
13. Humans (plural, and both sexes) are created, with authority over every other living thing.

I’ve noticed a couple of…shall we say odd details.

-There was a formless earth (what does that mean? A glob of mud?) and an ocean

-BEFORE the world was created. There is nothing about God created the formless earth and dark waters.

-Light existed before the sun or stars.

-It’s very clear that a “day” is what we consider a day, a full cycle of day and night.

-The sky is a dome that separates our lower ocean with the upper ocean…a solid thing that keeps the sky ocean from pouring in on us.

-Stars are lights affixed to the dome…they are presumably at about the same distance from the ground.

-The Sun and Moon are essentially the same….lights in the sky, and also affixed to the
Sky Dome, so are the same distance from the ground as the stars.

-No mention of planets.

-No mention of vegetation in the oceans.

-Vegetation, all life for the matter, is not directly created (designed, even?) by God, but is encouraged to spring forth from the land.

-Fish and birds are created simultaneously.

-No mention of microscopic organisms, or other forms of life that are not animal or vegetable (such as fungi).

-Domesticated animals are set apart from other animals…they were created domesticated, and are separate from wild relatives.

-Humans are (no surprise) of an entirely different order…not brought forth from the earth, patterned after God and his court (see 1 Kings 22.19 and Job 1.6), given divine blessing, and given dominion over all other life.

What really strikes me is that a reading of Genesis actually REFUTES ID, and directly contradicts a number of creationist talking points, namely those concerning the origin and nature of the Sun, Moon, and stars. All the creationist literature I’ve read seems to assume that the Moon is a large, rocky satellite, the Sun is a gigantic fusion furnace that is much farther away and that we orbit around, stars are like the sun but further away yet, and that Mercury, Venus, ect. are planets orbiting the Sun just like us.

So, really, it seems that creationist aren’t really adhering to a strict, literal Biblical interpretation like they say. Some things are so blatantly obvious that, well, maybe Genesis got it wrong.

If the goal here is to determine a precise process of creation according to and only chapter 1 of Genesis, then I think it’s fairly clear and doesn’t need much more interpretation. If we want to include the Garden of Eden, it shouldn’t be too much harder. But if we want to determine what creationists think, we’re going to have to ignore some particular parts of Genesis.

I'm sure there are a number of other issues I haven't mentioned that others can address.

Jubal_DiGriz · 08-18-2007, 05:35 PM

If Genesis was literally true:

We would not have rocks that can be dated past ~8,000 years, or were separated in age. For instance, every lava flow that supposedly occurred before people would have been created, and within the same day.

We would fine that every single plant fossil was exactly, to the day, the same age, and exactly one day older than every single non-volcanic rock (and most of the volcanic ones, too).

We would find that every single bird and fish fossil was exactly, to the day, the same age, and exactly one day older than every plant fossil.

We would find that every single animal fossil (including primate and human) was exactly, to the day, the same age, and exactly one day older than every single bird and fish fossil.

We would not find meteorites.

We would find, upon landing on the Moon, that is self-luminous and affixed to a dome.

We would find that, upon standing on the moon, we can always see the Sun directly or almost directly behind the Earth (being affixed to the same dome).

If we were to be able to see through the dome, or drill into it, we would see or be flooded with vast amounts of water.

We would expect to find that humans are significantly different from every other form of life, particular in physiology, our nervous system, and behavior, owing to being patterned directly off of divine beings. Our DNA and biochemistry may be very different as well, but this is not strongly implied by the text.

Going into the rest of Genesis...

We would have not archeology dating past ~8,000 years, and indeed would see a strong trend of concentric growth centered from a specific point (possibly somewhere in Iraq).

We would expect to see evidence of agriculture whenever we find human activity.

We would expect the oldest human remains to be exclusively in the Middle East.

We would expect to see evidence of decreasing longevity in ancient human lifespan, with the oldest humans having lived for several centuries.

We would expect a massive and universal break in the biological and anthropologically record (what's buried), corresponding to a massive and instantaneous shift in geologic formations due to catastrophic water damage. We would then expect a rapid period of growth of both human and animal populations, expanding concentrically and centered around a specific point (possibly somewhere in Afghanistan).

I could play this game all day. Those are some things that come off the top of my head. Do we want to play more of this, or is somebody still interested in formulating that "specific hypothesis concerning the creation of the world and life"?

JLK · 08-18-2007, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

This however still implies a beginning.

But "When God began to create...", as modern english Torahs have it (or "In the beginning of God's creating/God's creation of..." ala the earliest expositor of Hebrew grammar in Hebrew or "In the beginning when God created..." ala the New Oxford above), describes a beginning of a process on a pre-existing tohu&bohu haaretz -- not some Creation ex Nihilo, as a separate independent clause "In TheBeginning [pause] God created the heavens and earth [period] The earth was..." implies.
But what the heck do Jews know about Hebrew.

RAFH · 08-18-2007, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Elphick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dlx2

We spend a lot of time trying to explain the details of evolutionary biology to creationists here. Most of them, as recent events remind us, do not take the time to read or consider the material and sources we post, and instead throw google-searched creationist canards at us in lieu of an actual discussion.

So let's turn this around.

I want to know EXACTLY the specific hypothesis concerning the creation of the world and life forwarded in the book B'reishit (Genesis) and the various empirical observations that should be seen if this hypothesis is correct.

I want sources on the original Hebrew if possible.

How about starting with the ancient Hebrew's view of the world, with its dome, waters of the deep, pillars of the earth etc.

Did God tell really tell Moses the world was like this? What geological mechanisms managed to change a flat Earth into a round one? Creationists, was this the aftermath of the Curse or the Flood?

I wanna know about those mountains over where the dome comes down. Where are those? Do they go all the way around? Is this a typical section of a circular geometry or a section through a tube? If a circular geometry, is it circular or eliptic or ? If a tube, does the tube connect back to itself or does it run endlessly in both directions or is there an end either before or beyond this section? What do the 'pillars' rest upon, what it their foundation or do they float upon the waters? What's beyond the "Great Deep"? What is the 'firmament' made of? What are the windows made of? How do they operate? How big are they?

RAFH · 08-18-2007, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Now verse 2, "the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep," so observations 2 and 3: the earth was initially formless, and void of all we see around us now, the surface of the earth was dark, and the predominate form of matter there was liquid (as here).

Make that three more observations, observations 2, 3 and 4.

Make that three more assertions. All without support.

And what liquid "here", that's just a description of the early history of the earth, has nothing to do with Genesis. Genesis mentions nothing about heavy bombardments heating up the planet to liquid form.

JLK · 08-18-2007, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAFH

I wanna know about...??????

A few of these might be answered in chapters 72 to 78 of the Book of Enoch.

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08-18-2007, 05:02 PM	#15
Jubal_DiGriz Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 115	Let’s call these “statements”, not “observations”. Here is a condensed version of the Creation. Let’s deconstruct the hell out of this thing… 1. The earth was formless and the oceans were dark, and God was passing a wind over it. 2. Light was created and separated from darkness, and called Day and Night. 3. The first day passes. 4. A dome was created to separate the upper and lower oceans, and was called Sky. 5. The second day passes. 6. Land is created, and God commands vegetation to rise from the land. 7. The third day passes. 8. Lights in the dome…stars, the Moon, and the Sun…are created. 9. The forth day passes. 10. Fish and birds are created. 11. The fifth day passes. 12. Animals are created. 13. Humans (plural, and both sexes) are created, with authority over every other living thing. I’ve noticed a couple of…shall we say odd details. -There was a formless earth (what does that mean? A glob of mud?) and an ocean -BEFORE the world was created. There is nothing about God created the formless earth and dark waters. -Light existed before the sun or stars. -It’s very clear that a “day” is what we consider a day, a full cycle of day and night. -The sky is a dome that separates our lower ocean with the upper ocean…a solid thing that keeps the sky ocean from pouring in on us. -Stars are lights affixed to the dome…they are presumably at about the same distance from the ground. -The Sun and Moon are essentially the same….lights in the sky, and also affixed to the Sky Dome, so are the same distance from the ground as the stars. -No mention of planets. -No mention of vegetation in the oceans. -Vegetation, all life for the matter, is not directly created (designed, even?) by God, but is encouraged to spring forth from the land. -Fish and birds are created simultaneously. -No mention of microscopic organisms, or other forms of life that are not animal or vegetable (such as fungi). -Domesticated animals are set apart from other animals…they were created domesticated, and are separate from wild relatives. -Humans are (no surprise) of an entirely different order…not brought forth from the earth, patterned after God and his court (see 1 Kings 22.19 and Job 1.6), given divine blessing, and given dominion over all other life. What really strikes me is that a reading of Genesis actually REFUTES ID, and directly contradicts a number of creationist talking points, namely those concerning the origin and nature of the Sun, Moon, and stars. All the creationist literature I’ve read seems to assume that the Moon is a large, rocky satellite, the Sun is a gigantic fusion furnace that is much farther away and that we orbit around, stars are like the sun but further away yet, and that Mercury, Venus, ect. are planets orbiting the Sun just like us. So, really, it seems that creationist aren’t really adhering to a strict, literal Biblical interpretation like they say. Some things are so blatantly obvious that, well, maybe Genesis got it wrong. If the goal here is to determine a precise process of creation according to and only chapter 1 of Genesis, then I think it’s fairly clear and doesn’t need much more interpretation. If we want to include the Garden of Eden, it shouldn’t be too much harder. But if we want to determine what creationists think, we’re going to have to ignore some particular parts of Genesis. I'm sure there are a number of other issues I haven't mentioned that others can address.

08-18-2007, 05:35 PM	#16
Jubal_DiGriz Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 115	If Genesis was literally true: We would not have rocks that can be dated past ~8,000 years, or were separated in age. For instance, every lava flow that supposedly occurred before people would have been created, and within the same day. We would fine that every single plant fossil was exactly, to the day, the same age, and exactly one day older than every single non-volcanic rock (and most of the volcanic ones, too). We would find that every single bird and fish fossil was exactly, to the day, the same age, and exactly one day older than every plant fossil. We would find that every single animal fossil (including primate and human) was exactly, to the day, the same age, and exactly one day older than every single bird and fish fossil. We would not find meteorites. We would find, upon landing on the Moon, that is self-luminous and affixed to a dome. We would find that, upon standing on the moon, we can always see the Sun directly or almost directly behind the Earth (being affixed to the same dome). If we were to be able to see through the dome, or drill into it, we would see or be flooded with vast amounts of water. We would expect to find that humans are significantly different from every other form of life, particular in physiology, our nervous system, and behavior, owing to being patterned directly off of divine beings. Our DNA and biochemistry may be very different as well, but this is not strongly implied by the text. Going into the rest of Genesis... We would have not archeology dating past ~8,000 years, and indeed would see a strong trend of concentric growth centered from a specific point (possibly somewhere in Iraq). We would expect to see evidence of agriculture whenever we find human activity. We would expect the oldest human remains to be exclusively in the Middle East. We would expect to see evidence of decreasing longevity in ancient human lifespan, with the oldest humans having lived for several centuries. We would expect a massive and universal break in the biological and anthropologically record (what's buried), corresponding to a massive and instantaneous shift in geologic formations due to catastrophic water damage. We would then expect a rapid period of growth of both human and animal populations, expanding concentrically and centered around a specific point (possibly somewhere in Afghanistan). I could play this game all day. Those are some things that come off the top of my head. Do we want to play more of this, or is somebody still interested in formulating that "specific hypothesis concerning the creation of the world and life"?

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