Celine

Solo,
Thanks, much. I did know he died during the 90's, but didn't see much about him even then. What you say is pretty much my understanding as well.

Clivedurdle

We have been discussing Didache here and there is a hypothesis that that is possibly the earliest xian document - Garrow.

I have personally been arguing that the Eucharist is classic alchemy - wine into blood, bread into flesh.

I agree with you about these visionary jews ascending into heaven on their chariots and thus think gnosticism is far older than orthodox xianity states - this ecstatic wing of Judaism may be a result of staying "by the rivers of babylon" where they would have met zarathustrianism.

Is it not thought Isaiah may have been written there? What about other OT books?

I see several strands coming together of gnosticism, ecstatic religion, alchemic thinking, messianism, to create this superstitio based on a mangod. It is a thing of its time - no need for a founder - its alleged founder is in fact the way to tell the story - the hero figure.

Paul does look suspiciously important to have brought all tis stuff together in a new way - and being a good jew would have been very conscious of te blasphemies he was thinking, so would see it as an angel of satan until he had a catharsis where he met Jesus his imaginary friend who was so powerful he was also like Flash Gordon the saviour of the universe. The eucharist is completely integral to all this because that ritual "do this in remembrance of me" was thought to actually magically call jesus down from heaven to save us. By the way, I see all references in the NT to the second coming as they are stated - we have the daring dos of this super angel but all this was a temporary fix until he come in glory and marries is bride.

All great stuff, Spielberg couldn't match it, that hits most of our mythological buttons, but we have got confused somewhere between reality and hyper reality, missing the point of myth and legend and story and ritual and play.

Which is why I have quoted a Jungian therapist, because Jung, like Paul, also had an imaginary friend and very serious mental health issues, resolving it in Jung's case not with a new religion but an emphasis on integration of the self, of authenticity, of understanding myth.

Clivedurdle

From Babylon again, the direct influence of Zarathustrianism?

Solo

And mentioning Didache, the oldest church document, I am sure you noticed there is no Eucharist there. Also, it features Nazorean Jesus as "servant" of the Lord.

The transformational magic, or alchemy, has been known to the ancients since the Sumerian kingdom:

After Adapa answered Anu’s questions Anu said, “‘What can we do for him? Fetch him the bread of (eternal) life and let him eat!’

“They fetched him the bread of (eternal) life, but he would not eat. They fetched him the water of (eternal) life, but he would not drink... Anu watched him and laughed at him.

‘Come, Adapa, why didn’t you eat? Why didn’t you drink? Didn’t you want to be immortal? Alas for downªtrodden people!’

“‘(But) Ea my lord told me: “You mustn't eat! You mustn’t drink.”

“‘Take him and send him back to his earth.’”

http://www.alchemylab.com/origins_of_alchemy.htm


This sort of rite would have made sense in a proto-christian church that has already morphed from the original "brotherhood" to a structured organization with a priestly function, and to a ritual communion performed by an initiated priest for the benefit of those "unto whom it was not given" to know the mysteries. I think we can see even on this example how mythic and ritualistic elements were dragged in later to create the personna of Christ as living God.

....sure, there was some direct influence, and Isaiah (2), I think, was the first Prophet who was talking of the "flaming" hell (Gehenna). Of the five great prophets, of course three were Babylonian captives: Isaiah (2), Ezekiel and Daniel. Most of Isaiah (1) was written a century before the conquest and Jeremiah prophesied just before the first Temple fell.

Overall though, the "sheol" eschatology prevailed everywhere after the return from exile except among the apocalyptics. On a closer exam, you will find the resulting Christian hell well in excess of the one used to purify the earth for Ahura Mazda. (Thinking of it, it was more purgatory than hell).

I appreciate the matter could be quite daunting..not exactly sure what to make of the above..as for Jung, though I recognize his importance, his largesse d'esprit and have been intrigued by his collective unconscious theory, I have never been a fan. I am not sure what you are referring to in him having "serious mental health issues". I know he dabbled in occult (I read his Sermon to the Dead) and his synchronicity & seriality "principles" derive from observation of characteristic cognitive patterns of psychotics. Not aware of anything serious though.

Best regards,
Jiri

Clivedurdle

Around 1917 Jung had what I thought was accepted as a psychotic breakdown - I think he describes it in mdr. He saw his reaction to ww1 as contributory. His career can be understood as a physician trying to heal himself, and his exploration and interest in the esoteric was him looking at how other peoples throughout history had related to madness, to myth, to ritual. Jung describes his imaginary friend Philemon and the very positive psychological effects this relationship with himself had. Xians tend to reject all this stuff immediately as occult and evil, without realising that what makes occult evil is denying the existence of our dark sides!

On istory of xianity I think Ellegard has done a good job at pushing the possible starting date much earlier - he posits teacher of righteousness 100 bce as a starting point.

The stuff about church ritual, priests, heirarchies I think has a fundamental flaw. There have been for millenia different ways of doing religion - priestly ways as the Persians were doing at least in 500BCE and direct relationship with the gods as the greeks and later puritan streams do - priestood of all believers.

This argument is in the OT - do we want a king or not. It would not take long for a new superstitio to evolve heirarchies or not - that would be an immediate personal preference - as shown by the orthodox and gnostic and various other strands. Converts would bring with them the religious structures they were used to - gnostic mystic stuff or Roman Persian disciplined priestly stuff or any mixture you can imagine. Jews of course with the destruction of the temple and the move to synagogues were faced directly with this dilemma - what form of worship - which I see as actually a psychological preference - a secure ordered mother church or an anarchist relaxed communion as extremes. Tis is reflected in the variety of churches we find now, so that the religious and church structures actually create our personal psychological preferences.

Solo

Sounds very interesting, thanks. I did not know about the episode as the one biography of Jung I read years ago did not mention it. What's "mdr" ?

Jiri