Tars Tarkus

Would the Easter Challenge part of this thread be better served if split and sent to BC&H?

diana

My thoughts exactly, Tars. I think other bits of this thread need split, too.

d

Atheos

dr lazer blast,

I did not ask for a series of hand-selected questions and answers about differences between the four accounts. By doing so you were able to pick a few questions independently and provide rationalizations.

What I said, was:
I have no idea why you thought that "every detail from all four (five, if you count I Cor 15:14-15) accounts" included details that were not included in those passages, such as how many inches the boulder was moved.

Then towards the end of the hand-selected questions you propose this as your "short narrative that includes all the details"
These are just a few of the details you've left out:
1 - Angel addresses them while sitting on the rock outside the tomb
2 - Only 1 angel inside the tomb according to GMark.
3 - Angels issue orders to find Jesus in Galilee.
4 - Mary Magdelene has no idea what happened to Jesus's body when she talks to Peter and the BD the first time.
5 - GLuke is quite clear that nobody has seen Jesus (only angels) when the two men walking to Emmaus see him.
6 - GLuke is quite clear that Jesus meets disciples in Jerusalem, not Galilee.

As I said, those are just a few details. I'm not going to do your homework for you.

Please don't bother with another obfuscated series of hand-picked questions with possible resolutions.

Just put all the details in the accounts in order just like you were challenged to do.

Roger Pearse

Surely this 'question' can be equally well directed at atheists?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

dr lazer blast

This should have all the details in it.

Mary magdelana Mary mother of James, and Salome went to the tomb to anoint Christ with spices. Saw the guards and the rock, asked who is going to move the tomb. Angel comes down starts the earthquake gets off the rock goes into the tomb, after the earthquake they look and see the guards were dead and the rock is moved. They go in the tomb, 2 angels and no remains of Jesus. One of the 2 angels (Mark only said A man because only one of the 2 angels spoke) talked telling them that Jesus had risen from the dead telling them that He was not in the tomb and they should go and tell the disciples and that Jesus will go before them into Galilee after the meeting in Jerusalem. The 3 women separate mary magdelna going to find Peter and the other disciple, and the other 2 women going to get the rest. Mary finds Peter tells peter that she doesn't know where they put Jesus's body, peter and the other disciple run to the tomb, see the empty cloth and linen, go back home. Mary stays at the tomb and cries, sees 2 angels, sees Jesus first, then runs to the disciples house. The other 2 women go to tell the other disciples, meet the 2 men described in Luke, tell the 2 men about the angel, then they leave and Jesus appears to Mary mother of James and Salome. All the women arrive at the house at about roughly the same time, and tell their stories with mary magdelene telling the story of how peter got up and went to the tomb, and the 2 men described in luke come in afterwards (they had seen Jesus a little bit after the women left them).
Jesus then appeared to everyone in that room, then appeared to thomas, thereby showing himself to the 12 and the apostles, He breathed the Holy Ghost on them. The disciples left Jerusalem. Jesus appeared to Cephas, then at the head of 500, to James separately, Jesus then went before them to galilee and waited. The disciples and the apostles arrived at Galilee and saw Jesus there. Jesus talked to them giving them the promise that the Holy Ghost would be upon them soon, Then Jesus ascended to heaven. Then later Jesus appeared to paul.

dr lazer blast

Please read my initial post more carefully next time, Jhon is talking about ONLY mary Magdelane and the other gospels are talking about Mary mother of James, and Salome. When the angels talked to them as a group and told them to find the disciples the 3 women split up. mary magdelene going by herself to find Peter, and the other 2 women going to get the other disciples

Atheos

:deadhorse:

I want to bring forth an example of what I was referring to when I talked of "glazing one's eyes" earlier.

Remove the question and the answer from the context (the accounts themselves) and the answer seems reasonable. But the answer "glazes over" the fact that one writer says "Mary Magdelene", one says "Mary and Mary Magdelene", one says, "Mary, Mary Magdelene and Salome" and one says "Mary, Mary Magdelene, Joanna and other women". This is a contradiction inasmuch as in each case the writers (except for "Luke") give the reader no reason to think anyone else was there besides the lady or ladies specified. You say (I'm paraphrasing here) that if you have 10 dollars in your pocket you can truthfully answer "yes" if someone asks you if you have a dollar. That's fine, but it's not the same thing. The question was not "did a lady come to the tomb?", it's "Who came to the tomb?". Big difference. The same difference as "Do you have a dollar?" versus "How much money is in your pocket right now?" If you answered "A dollar" you'd be lying and you know it.

Once again you're glazing over the details that contradict each other in the descriptions about what happened next. According to "Matthew" the Angel sat down on the stone and addressed them from it, encouraging them to "come" and look where he was. This admonition would make no sense if they were already inside the tomb and looking at where he was. "Matthew" and everyone else are clearly contradicting each other about where the angel was.

While composing this post I see that you've posted and added the following:
And you can't see how far you're having to go to apologize for this contradiction? There's nothing in "Matthew's" text to suggest that the angel walked into the tomb from the rock and into the tomb, nor does this jive with "Luke's" clearly worded statement that they hadn't seen any angels and were already standing inside the tomb when suddenly two angels appeared among them. Just how far do you have to go before you're willing to admit that you're "torturing" the text?

According to "John" none of the ladies ever actually went into the tomb. Mary Magdelene always stood outside and looked in.

According to "Mark" there was only one angel inside the tomb. Mark doesn't say "only one person spoke to the women". He says they saw "saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted." There's no "other" angel sitting in the tomb in Mark's account. This is getting absolutely ridiculous.

So which is it? Was the angel sitting outside on the stone or sitting inside on the right side of the tomb? Was Mary Magdelene inside the tomb when she saw the angels (Luke) or was she standing outside the tomb and looking in (John)?

And I can't help but notice that you have turned a blind eye to what I have pointed out several times now is the most glaring contradiction of all: The command to meet Jesus in Galilee, not Jerusalem (in "Matthew" and "Mark") versus "Luke's" insistence that not only did Jesus meet the disciples in Jerusalem he clearly commanded them not to leave Jerusalem until well after he had ascended.

You're ignoring these details. Are you hoping the rest of us won't notice them?

Finally, I just can't let this go unchallenged:
... and the reason we have to constantly resolve things in our legal systems is because our legal systems are of human origin. We don't know whether or not a person is guilty until we've taken time to evaluate the evidence precisely because we're "only human". In this way the bible resembles human work, as it is obviously imperfect and needs lots of help from apologists to make sense. That is precisely why I see it as just another book written by human beings.

Science and the development of medication is also a human endeavor. It has exactly the sort of flaws, imperfections and need for constant improvement that one would expect to see in any human endeavor. In other words it's just like the bible.

Speaking of "Dr Seuss", I challenge you to find anything Dr. Seuss ever wrote that's any more ridiculous than Jacob using streaked rods to effect genetic engineering on Laban's flock (Genesis 30:37-39). Talking cats in hats? How about talking snakes with legs? Or a boat containing 8 people and several million animals that has only one window 15" square for ventilation? :rolling:

Don't forget, you are the one implying that all this bullshit was inspired by some all-powerful god and is 'perfect'. I know we have to work hard to defend or replace imperfect things. Why do you have to work so hard to defend something that's supposed to be perfect already?

Atheos

Problems:
1 - Mary Magdelene saw the angel, was told that Jesus was alive, then goes to find Peter and tell him "They have taken away the LORD out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him". According to John 20:2 she has no idea Jesus is resurrected when she meets Peter. With your account of the events she knows exactly what happened.
2 - "Mark's" angel did not tell the disciples Jesus would meet them in Gallilee after he talked to them in Jerusalem. He specifically said "tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you". You are torturing the text by refusing to accept that "Mark's" statement of what the angel said was accurate.
3 - Apart from the most stubborn refusal to accept that there is a contradiction there is no reason to assume that the women separated on their way to see the disciples. "Matthew" says, "they" and he only lists two women. Luke's version is similarly clear about who "they" refers to, saying "they returned and told all these things unto the eleven and to the rest". It is at that point that "Luke" specifies which women he was describing, and includes Mary Magdelene in the list. Again, you are torturing the text by inserting this unwarranted separation.
4 - "The disciples left Jerusalem ... The disciples and the apostles arrived at Galilee and saw Jesus there" - This is in direct contradiction to "Luke's" clearly stated account of what happened:
"Luke" / Acts is absolutely clear about this point and the geography is unimpeachable. Acts 1:12 even asserts that they went no more than "a sabbath day's journey" from Jerusalem. Although the exact distance of a "sabbath day's journey" is subject for debate nobody would argue that it would include a 50 mile trek to Gallilee. It was the threshold of travel that Jewish tradition held meant the difference between "just taking a walk" and "going for a journey" (which would involve "work", something they were prohibited from doing on the sabbath day).

Details you've still not inserted in your narrative include:
1 - Cephas was the first person to see the resurrected Jesus (I Cor 15:5)
2 - At least Mary and one other woman saw the resurrected Jesus somewhere between the tomb and visiting the disciples the first time (Matt 28:8-9).
3 - Jesus tells Mary (and at least one other woman, presumably Mary Magdelene) to tell the disciples to "go into Galilee, and there shall they see me"
4 - The eleven disciples think the women are telling them idle tales and do not believe them.

These are not all the details you've excluded. I'm through doing your homework for you. Any further submissions that lack details from your book will simply be marked "details still lacking".

Amaleq13

First line and you already have a serious problem.

Mark tells us that those two women knew where Jesus' tomb was because they watched Joseph place him there (15:47). John, however, tells us that Joseph was not alone but accompanied by Nicodemus who brought a hundred weight of spices with him!(19:39-40)

IOW, Christ's body had already been anointed with spices and the women could not possibly have missed the inclusion of that enormous amount of spices so the reason given for their return is certainly untrue.

Kharakov

Actually, in Matthew 28:8-10 it refers to Mary Magdalene and the other Mary's encounter with Jesus. This differs from the account of Mary Magdalene's encounter with Jesus in John 20:10-18 in that in John, they have a totally different conversation than in Matthew- and to have participated in one of the conversations would result in one not acting as one did in the other conversation.

I think your main problem is that you do not realize that despite the fact that the bible may have been inspired by God, it was written by sinful men, or do you postulate that the Disciples were/are sinless? You also have to take into account, that as sinful men, they all have their own view on the matter, corrupted by their sin, ehh?