Freethought & Rationalism Archive

No Robots · 05-23-2012, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Except for the ones who observed that Jesus was their Messiah.

:banghead:

Read again what Brunner says. The disciples tried to shoehorn Christ into their conception of the Messiah. Christ himself had a completely different understanding of himself. He used the term Messiah, but he remade its meaning to fit himself.

outhouse · 05-23-2012, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But the jews dont think jesus was the messiah. The rabbinic authorities all say he was one who preached other gods and thus (presumably) deserved death. How could the davidic messiah paradigm square with jesus consistently being understood to be Balaam? You people dont know WTF you are talking about. You cant have it both ways and misrepresent MY inherented tradition and that of ancestors castong words in their mouths they would rather face death than utter

I agree but.

you know as well as I do, that then there were different branches of judaism and they all didnt see eye to eye.

so because a small portion of certian sects looked at jesus as the messiah. which we all know was short lived within judaism. Doesnt mean no jews looked at jesus as the messiah.

some did.

outhouse · 05-23-2012, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Except for the ones who observed that Jesus was their Messiah.

:banghead:

Read again what Brunner says. The disciples tried to shoehorn Christ into their conception of the Messiah. Christ himself had a completely different understanding of himself. He used the term Messiah, but he remade its meaning to fit himself.

I doubt jesus ever called himself a messiah.

why would a traveling teacher/healer working for dinner scraps, claim that.

he was a man later deified after death, and defined as messiah long after he died

No Robots · 05-23-2012, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

I doubt jesus ever called himself a messiah.

why would a traveling teacher/healer working for dinner scraps, claim that.

he was a man later deified after death, and defined as messiah long after he died

He appropriated for himself all the highest tropes of Judaism. As Brunner writes, "Christ wants to be named differently from all other men. They should call him the Son of God or Messiah; or if they call him rabbi, no one else should be called so." This is part of his exalted self-conception, which is itself a function of his mystical self-absorption.

outhouse · 05-23-2012, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

I doubt jesus ever called himself a messiah.

why would a traveling teacher/healer working for dinner scraps, claim that.

he was a man later deified after death, and defined as messiah long after he died

He appropriated for himself all the highest tropes of Judaism. As Brunner writes, "Christ wants to be named differently from all other men. They should call him the Son of God or Messiah; or if they call him rabbi, no one else should be called so." This is part of his exalted self-conception, which is itself a function of his mystical self-absorption.

I dont find Brunner correct though.

I think he is giving historicity where its not due. he's quoting biblical jesus more so then the historical charactor

we know what hellenistic authors wrote, not what the man really said.

outhouse · 05-23-2012, 01:23 PM

there were 4 major players judaism and sub sects in the first century

zealots
saducees
pharisees
essenes

people in this thread are using the term judasim in way to narrow a view

sotto voce · 05-23-2012, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Except for the ones who observed that Jesus was their Messiah.

:banghead:

Read again what Brunner says. The disciples tried to shoehorn Christ into their conception of the Messiah.

All that just to be popular.

No Robots · 05-23-2012, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

All that just to be popular.

The disciples were doing their best to try to understand someone who utterly surpassed them.

sotto voce · 05-23-2012, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

All that just to be popular.

The disciples were doing their best to try to understand someone who utterly surpassed them.

Whatever the fantasy, the fact is that it was Jews who made the nucleus of the first church, at home and abroad.

No Robots · 05-23-2012, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Whatever the fantasy, the fact is that it was Jews who made the nucleus of the first church, at home and abroad.

Absolutely true.

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05-23-2012, 01:23 PM	#36
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	there were 4 major players judaism and sub sects in the first century zealots saducees pharisees essenes people in this thread are using the term judasim in way to narrow a view

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