judge

Yes I agree. But the burden should perhaps also aply the other way. If one wants to assert that no first century jews knew of the virgin birth story then there should be some evidence provided. I'm not sure that persuasive evidence has been provided.

Perhaps it would be better to say we don't know?

andrewcriddle

P1 would seem to be an authentic copy of significance from the 3rd century.

As to the 2nd century:

a/ Even if (Which is IMO improbable) Ignatius to the Ephesians is not authentic it is almost certainly a 2nd century work.

b/ We have other evidence from the late 2nd century Irenaeus and the Diatessaron of Tatian for Matthew's account of the Virgin Birth. (Plus slightly later evidence eg from Origen in the first half of the 3rd century.)

(You are correct we don't have original documents of these works till much later but it is most unilkely that all have been interpolated.)

c/ Matthew's account is present in both copies of the Old Syriac, the original form of which goes back probably to c 200 CE and in a large group of Old Latin texts also representing a translation or translations made around 200 CE.

Andrew Criddle

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Welcome to the darker side of Christianity. I've noticed that a large number of denominations expect--even demand--that their followers have complete faith in the words of their leaders, particularly regarding scripture. Critical thinking, research, and historical analysis are seemingly actively discouraged activities for the lay folk. The symptoms get worse the more conservative the leadership and dogma become.

There's a reason they're called sheep...what do shepherds do to their flock when warm weather comes along?

Magdlyn

"A" virign birth, as in any old coupling of a god and a virgin/human?

Or the Virgin Birth that Mary accomplished?

Certainly 1st century Jews may have heard of the concept of virgin birhts in general. Jews had come into contact with Greeks and their sacred literature for many centuries at this point. This is how the 2 religions came to be syncretized into what we now call Christianity.

Again, if you are referring the the birth Mary accomplished, it is not a faith position, but more of an agnostic position. There is no evidence of virgin births in Jewish lit before the times stated by the gentlemen here.

That is a silly question. IMO.

John A. Broussard

We are obviously at an impasse. You tend to accept copies as verbatim transcriptions of the originals--however far removed. I tend to mistrust human skills in transcribing (after many years of proofreading) and feel that interpolations creep in, especially when the scribes have some particular belief they would like to see in the documents.

Chris Weimer

Matthew is not Jewish or even Jewish-Christian