show_no_mercy

What authority does "Paul" have? Assuming "Paul" has any authority or is even speaking unquestionable truth constitutes preaching. This is Biblical Critisicm & History, not Biblical Devotion & Fantasy.

razlyubleno

Who do you consider to be witnesses? If the story is fiction, then the witnesses are all from one pen.

But the speculation is about the historical record. You're trying to defeat arguments by restating the very thing that is being called into question. Do you see how that makes no sense?

There has been debate even among Rabbis in the Talmud, as to whether Job existed or not. Please don't think this belief only exists among modern liberal, skeptical, atheist academic types.

Tract Baba Bathra:

No Robots

Looks like the quarrel between mythicists and historicists goes back a long way.

Susan2

Um, I think it was the Jewish writings that have us going from dust to dust, chaos, that Moses stuff. You know, all that pain and suffering, and sweating and crawling, and begging, to the day one dies, revenge stuff. And it appears to me that Islam, son of Abraham, is ready and willing to carry it out. And if not them, it appears the Pope sure would. I don’t think he likes women.

But don’t worry, once the atheists get rid of the undesirables (theists), I guess everything is supposed to be better. Sounds kinda Hitlerish to me, but..................some say it’s all relative, correct?

All hail, Einstein? High fives, all around, stiff. According to Einstein, it’s our destiny.

Come let us reason together? Ah yes, that begging, pain, suffering, sweating revenge stuff..........

No Robots

Christianity without the trinity, without the divinity of Jesus, without the incarnation and vicarious atonement, Christianity stripped of all its distinctive characteristics, is nothing but the universal religion of Yahve, such as was conceived and proclaimed by the greatest prophets and wisest teachers of Israel, among whom I count and reverence the immortal prophet and teacher of Nazareth. Christianity without a Christian dogma is not the religion of the genuine historical Christian churches. It is the universal faith which is usually named Judaism. It is what I call Yahvism in order to dissociate it in consciousness from the element of the race. It is the universal religion of broad humanity, of justice, of love and holiness. It is the religion of Moses, of Amos, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hillel, and Jesus. It is the ethical monotheism of Israel without the limitations and the trammels of race, without the yoke of ceremonial law. It is the religion which I and all enlightened rabbis profess and teach.--Yahvism, and other discourses / Adolph Moses: p. 162.

razlyubleno

Yeah, exactly. But how come Job and Jesus are treated so differently? You can say to most Christians that Job didn't exist, that he was used only for an example. But they won't ever let you extend that explanation to Jesus tradition. Did he really cleanse the temple? Probably not, it was just an example. Cursing the fig tree? Probably an example too. Just don't get caught saying that in good company, y'know? The gospels are special, unique among all ancient literature, primary intended as history in the vein of Herodotus. They are not allowed to be figuratively interpreted.

No Robots

Yeah, I know.:shrug:

IamJoseph

Christianity's core doctrines can NEVER allign with that of its claimed attachment to its mother religion. This saddest of facts has befallen humanity, and is also displayed between Christianity and Islam, and both those religions and Judaism. I say:

AN HONEST DISAGREEMENT BEATS A DISHONEST AGREEMENT.

The only resolvement of this issue is not via Christianity, Jesus, the Quran or Mohammed - but only via Moses. PERIOD. It cannot be resolved by Christians or Muslims speaking in Moses' name.

It appears the adherants of all three religions hold equally genuine views of their beliefs [though it is doubtful this is equal considering the time period of belief and the price paid by Jews to uphold their beliefs]. However, the sincerity of all three does not mean all are equally correct and right: it is a blatant fact that both Christianity and Islam cannot be equally right, and have submitted mutually exclusive doctrines upon humanity, which has thus far caused billions of innocent deaths the last 2000 years - with more on the agenda as a guarantee.

The test is how these three religions behave with each other - while there is a core disagreement in their belief systems. After all, this is what the story of Abraham represents: diabolical testings. The most suspicious factor remains that Christians and Muslims do not look to a return of Moses, instead of their own, far removed figures - who have caused this ubsurd situation in the first place!

A desired falsehood cannot be chosen instead of a disdained truth - and the truth is also pointing in that direction, of Judaism's favor, but this is met with denial by christians and muslims - for understandable reasons. This is not a bad resut, considering that humanity's future is not with the figures of any religion but only with the true Creator of the entire universe - its not about three belief systems only.

IMHO, Judaism will prevail as the truth in every instance, the premise of equal rights and justice for all will prevail - the notion of unbelievers and infidels will fall and go belly up. But this will have to be via an independent, mysterious and miraculous manifestation - and this would have to include Moses at the helm. No options here. If any adherants of the three Middle-east originated religions are not looking to Moses to affirm the correct path - they are a suspicious lot and not inclined towards the truth. :huh:

IamJoseph

:constern01:

That's a typical mis-understanding and mis-rep of the term 'dust'. First up - it is correct and true: we do turn to dust - at least in the first percievement level: we all do end up consumed by maggots and dispersed in the dust. The term dust is an ancient description of the base particles of creation, the smallest particles which cannot be further divided or reduced any more, even surpassing the sub-atomic realms, and points to where we came from: from dust to dust. IOW, we go back to where we came from originally - the final frontier - our original source point. This points only to the original source - thus it cannot ultimately be a bad or negative conclusion, though it is understandably percieved as such in the first reading.

Christianity has a wrong understanding of Moses and the Hebrew bible, calling it fire and brimstone: they conveniently forget where the notion of everlasting burning in hell comes from [everlasting? what a waste of fuel!]. In fact the Mosaic answer is the most sublime among all writ when correctly understood. When asked where we would like to end up after we terminate this life - there is nowhere better than where this points to in the Hebrew bible. Better than white clad angels with harps - better than vestal virgin ubsurdities - is to return to our source - and this is only possible via the route we arrived here. Dust - the smallest, invisable, non-corporeal essence of spiritual sparks. The best. Where else?

Note the reverse order of this verse:

'I TAKE LIFE - AND I GIVE LIFE' [Hebrew bible].

:wave:

storytime

More than a few Christians believe Judas to be the enemy of Jesus, and Satan. However, Jesus called him friend. I think Peter is the enemy of Jesus and the Jews. I see Peter as a wannabe leader of disciples who didn't quite make the grade. And Jesus called Peter "Satan". "Have I not chose twelve and one of you a devil?" I suppose if this story is a story of "passion" it would be passion for the Jews in their religion against the likes of Peter and his salvation gospel to Gentiles.