viscousmemories

Xorbie, this isn�t an insult, but you are not understanding what I wrote. You really should re-read the OP. I created the scenario. The father and daughter within the scenario are my fictional creations as well. I am their God, and I determine what is true and not true in their world. They think, feel, and believe whatever I say they think, feel, and believe. And I am telling you, as I wrote in my OP, that the father believes incest is immoral. So, in the universe wherein this hypothetical father and daughter live (hmm� I should probably give them names if I�m going to have to keep referring to them. I�ll think on that.) as far as he and she are concerned, incest is inherently immoral. Allow me to reiterate that it is not relevant if incest is inherently immoral in the universe wherein you and I live. For the purposes of this discussion, incest is immoral. You may duly dismiss this important point if you like, but doing so is only going to ensure that you miss the rest of the argument I�m making.
I don�t think you do know what I�m saying, because I never said �deception will inherently disrupt the relationship�. I never even implied it. In fact, and I think I did mention this, I don�t think the deception angle is even relevant to whether or not the father�s fantasies are immoral.
The question of whether or not his concealment of his true feelings for her is dishonest, and the resultant question of whether or not that dishonesty is immoral are interesting, but in my opinion not at issue here.
Yes, you do.
I�m not sure what you�re on about here, xorbie. You came into this thread spouting off about how there is nothing immoral about incest, much less fantasies about incest (accompanied by some offensive rhetoric to Tom Sawyer, I might add) and then in your second post said: �Hello? People are making claims that the fantasy itself is wrong. I totally disagree with this. You can go ahead and fantasize about whatever the hell you want so long as you harm nobody. There can never be anything immoral about that. EVER.�

Well, xorbie: Hello? People have argued that there is good reason to believe that actual harm can occur, in fact very likely does occur, as a result of a father having sexual fantasies about his daughter. If we could prove beyond reasonable doubt that damage does in fact occur to the relationship between a father and daughter as a result of his changed behavior because of his sexual fantasies about her, would you then concede that thoughts can in fact be immoral? Or would you simply reassert your original statement (if you prefer that to �position�) that �there can never be anything immoral about that. EVER.�

vm

livius drusus

You seem to have forgotten the premise of the OP. If you want to discuss the morality of incest, there's another thread right under this one where you can engage it. Viscous made it clear in the OP and in follow-up posts that for the purposes of this discussion the father considers incest immoral.

So according to you unless they are engaging in intercourse the relationship between them is unchanged and unsexualized? That is on its face incorrect. Unless he was sexually attracted to her when she was a baby, a toddler, 8, 10, 13, his desire for her is a new element in their relationship, and not a negligible one. Expand that desire into active fantasy, and the change is radical.

As viscous pointed out in his reply to the_cave here, people act differently around someone they've imagined fucking. They seek out visual data and double entendres, make a series of mental notes for later masturbatory use. In the case of a father who has special access to his daughter's presence based on the presumption that as her father he feels about her a certain way and will therefore not take advantage of that access, such behavior is immoral.

Fantasy is not passive. It is active, a mental construct that can be intricate and far-reaching. Regardless of what the daughter knows, the father has a responsibility to contain his behavior. So far neither you nor Loren nor any of the other people who claim that fantasy is all in the mind have denied that he will draw material for his naked mental gymnastics from his rl interactions with her.

So let me ask you explicitly: will he be able to refrain from using his relationship with her to get fodder for his solo fantasies? If so, how? If not, isn't that a major change in the nature of their relationship?

xorbie

livius drusus
Let's say I work with a co-worker I find sexually attractive. If I like having fantasies about her, does that mean I will be unable to talk to her ever again because I will be too busy checking out her body? If that is the case, I should lay off the fantasies.

Same thing here. If daddy doesn't think he can stop himself from seeing his daughter as a sex toy, he should stop, and get help. However, there are many people who can want to have sex with someone, have imagined having sex with them and can still carry on totally normal (non-sexual) relationships. Your assumption seems to be that this is totally impossible. And if from time to time checks her out without her knowledge, nobody is hurt.

Also, what is interesting is that you assume that this parent is already like a super good dad. Of course this is your universe, but what if the dad was bad? What if he would always come home late from work, would not check up on how his daughter was doing, etc. But now, he comes home from work earlier, picks her up from school, etc

Would this mean the relationship would be better? Wouldn't this mean that not only are the fantasies not immoral, but they are n fact morally good?

visciousmemories

Keep in mind that I am basically replying to both you and livus in my posts, and livus specifically mentions deception ("Quite the opposite in fact. It exacerbates the imbalance by introducing a constant undercurrent of deception into their relationship")

And guess what? If daddy thinks incest is immoral, I disagree with him. However, then his constant fantasies would make him feel uncomfortable with himself. I fail to see how someone could have such fantasies and seek them out when they believe it is immoral.... he needs some professional help if he strokes off at the same time as thinking "of man, this is so wrong, so wrong, so wrong..."

And as I continue on in this thread, I am becoming more and more convinced that the morality of incest is actually totally irellevant. All that matters is that the daughter believes it is immoral, and that she would be psychology damaged if she discovered her father's lust.

(As a side note, after reading that other thread on the morality of incest, I think the consensus was that so long as nobody became pregnant it was fine.)

If you could prove that the father knew that damage would come about, and knowingly went on with it, I would say it is immoral. However, since this is apparently all a fantasy world made up anyway, I suspect this may be the new addendum to the father's persona. I do not think it applies to all fathers. And no, the thought is no immoral, but consistently thinking about it, or at least not taking steps to stop thinking about it would be considered immoral... just a technicallity, I know, but wanted to set that straight.