Freethought & Rationalism Archive

S.C.Carlson · 07-08-2007, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

There is a story in John chapter 5 where Jesus heals a man at a pool with 5 porches or porticoes. There is archeological evidence that the 5 porches were part of a temple built to honor Asclepis, the greek God of healing by the roman Emperor Hadrian sometime around 125 CE. [I don't remember the exact date]

I'd appreciate a citation to the scholarly literature for this archaeological evidence.

Stephen

S.C.Carlson · 07-08-2007, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0swy

What's the current 'state of play' on who might have wrote what when? I've been arguing with a believer that there are no countemporaneous accounts of Jesus and that the authorship of the Gospels is highly debated, and although I think I'm correct in saying this I don't know the details. I'm aware, for example, that some of the Gospels seem to copy from others and that at least one is generally understood to have been written by a succession of authors, but other than that I'm in the dark. Many thanks for any views.

Most critical scholars hold that the four gospels now found in the New Testament were written somewhere in the last third of the first century (with Mark first and John last) by persons pretty much otherwise unknown. It also widely held among critical scholars that the authors of Matthew and Luke made use of Mark as a source. The relationship of John to the others remains controversial.

Stephen

Toto · 07-08-2007, 07:28 PM

Clouseau's diversion has been split off here

Toto · 07-08-2007, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

There is a story in John chapter 5 where Jesus heals a man at a pool with 5 porches or porticoes. There is archeological evidence that the 5 porches were part of a temple built to honor Asclepis, the greek God of healing by the roman Emperor Hadrian sometime around 125 CE. [I don't remember the exact date] This would date John's Gospel to a later time 95 years after Jesus, and certainly not written by the Apostle John.
Try Googling...but you will find that the Christians have loaded up the internet with propaganda so you can't find the tree you are looking for in the Christian forest.
As you read John 5, you can certainly see the pagan influence as the first in the water gets healed and healing has nothing to do with the God of the Bible. It really doesn't make sense in a Jewish or Christian context. The Jews would have protested having a temple where the first person in the water gets healed, so close to the temple mount unless this temple was built after the Jews were diminished in power, after the revolt of 70CE or after the Bar Korba revolt.

stuart shepherd

I tried Googling (it helps if you spell Ascepius right) and I found this interesting reference on Google Books:

The Holy Land: An Oxford Archaeological Guide from Earliest Times to 1700 (or via: amazon.co.uk) By Jerome Murphy-O'Connor. Origen was the first to link the 5 porches to that particular temple.

The 5 porches are usually held up as evidence that John knew about a temple that was demolished in 70 CE: Robinson on redating the NT

Quote:

This is one of John's topographical details that have been strikingly confirmed in recent study. [ citations omitted ] Not only does it reveal a close acquaintance with Jerusalem before 70, when the evidence of the five porches was to be buried beneath the rubble only recently to be revealed by the archaeologist's spade; but John says not 'was' but 'is'. Too much weight must not be put on this - though it is the only present tense in the context, and elsewhere (4.6; 11.18; 18.1; 19.41) he assimilates his topographical descriptions to the tense of the narrative.

Joan of Bark · 07-09-2007, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

If this whole Jesus thing were true, I wonder why the apostles and disciples took so long to write anything down. If true, this was the most amazing event in history....someone doing fantastic miracles, dying and then coming back to life. I would expect Jesus' followers all to be writing this story down immediately so all the world would know.

stuart shepherd

I can't provide a reference, but I remember reading somewhere that the disciples didn't bother writing anything down because they assumed Jesus was returning soon (within their lifetimes) to usher in the new kingdom of God.
Why waste time with texts that would never be read?

Clouseau · 07-09-2007, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0swy

What's the current 'state of play' on who might have wrote what when?

How does the identity of an author matter?

DCHindley · 07-09-2007, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

90% may be right if you look at the proportion of Mk represented in "either" Mt or Lk, but I recall 60% is reproduced in "both" Mt and Lk.

DCH

Survey says..........

"Of 11,078 words of the text of Mark 8,555 are reproduced by Matthew and 6,737 by Luke." (Schelle, p169)

Both of you must take 50 lashes with soaking pasta for not looking up the answer. And I win! And collect $200 and go around Go! Nyah! Nyah! Nyah!

Vorkosigan

You Imperial Auditors are all the same ... <g>

DCH
(An actual auditor)

Julian · 07-09-2007, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

... (it helps if you spell Ascepius right) ...

:rolling:

DCHindley · 07-09-2007, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

90% may be right if you look at the proportion of Mk represented in "either" Mt or Lk, but I recall 60% is reproduced in "both" Mt and Lk.

DCH

Survey says..........

"Of 11,078 words of the text of Mark 8,555 are reproduced by Matthew and 6,737 by Luke." (Schelle, p169)

Both of you must take 50 lashes with soaking pasta for not looking up the answer. And I win! And collect $200 and go around Go! Nyah! Nyah! Nyah!

Vorkosigan

Hmmm,

Forcing me to spend all my lunch break looking up these things, eh?

If you want to be precise, according to the venn diagram at the following web site,
http://www.jeff-jackson.com/Religion...13_Origin.html

93% of Mk is found in BOTH Mt & Lk combined (620/670)
75% of Mk is found in Lk (500/670)
90% of Mk is found in Mt (600/670)

How precise the statistics are, I do not know. All my research books are packed in about 20 boxes in the basement for the time being.

DCH

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07-08-2007, 07:28 PM	#13
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Clouseau's diversion has been split off here

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