Ben C Smith

It appears you are interpreting faith as belief. I readily affirm that belief is part of faith in the Pauline epistles, but another part is faithfulness, or obedience, which Paul explicitly commends (Romans 1.5; 6.16; 15.18; 16.26; 2 Corinthians 9.13; 10.5-6). The use of the Greek word for faith (πιστις) in Romans 3.3 is interesting; here Paul speaks of the faith of God. What exactly is God believing in? Rather, of course, it is the faithfulness of God that is in view. This shows some of the range of this noun in Greek.

Ben.

Amaleq13

IIRC, Crossan suggests a connection to a Jewish thanksgiving meal of bread and wine. That, I would think, entails remembrance as an existing aspect of the practice.

Ben C Smith

I quite agree. However, the aspect I was endorsing an exploration of was the eating of flesh and the drinking of blood. Maybe that was not what Robert had in mind, in which case his inquiry is easily answered as you suggest; but he did mention the body and blood aspect, and that is an aspect that still makes me pause sometimes, no doubt merely because I have not investigated it as thoroughly as I might.

That David Daube link is interesting, and I am taking a closer look at it. (I like Daube, but have read only a small fraction of his voluminous output.)

Ben.

spamandham

The discussion is in regard to religious practices (/beliefs), rather than religions. A religion certainly may be invented from whole cloth, but even those borrow from pre-existing religious practices/beliefs.

A truly novel religion incorporating only novel concepts would not even be a religion, since all religions necessarily include the rather ancient idea of the 'supernatural' (that's what distinguishes religions from philosophies).

spamandham

...but that's the point I was trying to make. Practices within Christianity that do not tie well to Judaism, were most likely Hellenistic (aka pagan) themes. I don't see why anyone would consider that controversial.

spamandham

This seems terribly speculative to me. The breaking off of a piece of bread to set aside has a better parallel in the Sadir meal, which traditionally includes setting aside a plate of food for the Messiah (The Coming One), should he show up. Daube (really Eisler's argument) fails to explain the 'blood' altogether (and admits this on the last page), but does have the following to say which I find interesting (p. 438):

...the institution of the Eucharist as recorded in the New Testament of necessity presupposes a ritual essentially (not in details, to be sure, but essentially) like that of the "Coming One."

So, Daube seems to have noticed the same thing I did, which is that the ritual supposes a pre-existing concept.

No Robots

Yes, but he maintains that it is a pre-existing Jewish ritual.

No Robots

The Sadir (usually spelled 'Seder') is precisely what Daube is discussing.

No Robots

Daube states that he did not have time in his presentation to delve into the question of blood. The symbolic connection between blood and wine in the Seder is well known:

The mitzvah of the four cups is optimally fulfilled with red wine. This is based on the verse (Proverbs 23:31) that states: Do not look at the wine as it reddens . This implies that red wine is superior. Red wine also serves as a reminder of the blood of circumcision and the blood of the Paschal sacrifice, for Israel was told before leaving Egypt: Circumcise all your males and then come to offer the sacrifice.

The Torah then tells us that the entire nation did as the were commanded. The blood of circumcision became mingled wit the blood of the sacrifice and it is the merit of these two mitzvot that we commemorate by drinking red wine.

Red wine also serves as a reminder of the blood that was smear on the doorposts as a sign when G-d passed over the homes of Israel not permitting the destruction to strike them. By using red wine thus express our prayer that G-d continue to protect us from all our enemies and foes.

Red wine also serves to protect us and as a reminder of the blood of the Jewish children whom Pharaoh slaughtered so as to bathe in their blood and be cured of his leprosy. This shed blood shall never be silenced. Even three thousand years after this tragedy we shall remember.

--from here

No Robots

On the question of the Eucharist, you wrote:

- The symbolic body/blood of the eucharist; "Do this in memory of me"-huh!?

You do not seem to have noticed any pre-existing concept here.