spin

Because you don't [expletive removed] look at it.

For christ[expletive removed]sake notice that the word is used twice in the same verse differently. Can you stop for a moment to [browbeating removed] try to [browbeating removed = "think about the issue"] ?

Look at it:

ειπεν ο κυριος τω κυριω μου
(says the lord (to) the lord my)

["the lord my", word for word from the Greek, = "my lord"]

Two distinct references with κυριος in the same verse. Do they mean the same thing?? Hopefully it dawns on you that they don't.

Well, how do you distinguish the difference between them?

ο κυριος, "the lord", is a direct reference to an entity.

ο κυριος μου, "my lord", is a position, a rank an indication of power over you.

Can you tell the difference between phrases such as "(the) lord Jesus" or "my lord" (in which "lord" functions as a normal noun describing a person) and "the lord" which is a direct reference to a person?

Can you go back to your earlier post and see that Mat 6:24, 10:24, Rom 14:4 and Col 3:22 are all examples of the common noun describing someone(s)?

Look at the way "the lord" is used in Matthew or Mark. Can you find any examples where it is used without qualification, just plain "the lord"? To whom does that unqualified κυριος refer??

A possessive pronoun helps you: if its my/your/his/their lord then it is a titular use of κυριος. If its a prelude to a name, "lord Jesus" it's titular. If it is qualified, eg "lord of this land", it is titular.

If it is in lieu of a name, eg "the lord said..." it is not titular. In the LXX every non-titular use of κυριος refers to god. It translates יהוה YHWH.

Is this clear yet? Do you understand the distinction between the two uses and do you appreciate the significance of the distinction? Do you understand what people mean when they talk of "the non-titular use of κυριος"?


spin

judge

Who are the people?

judge

Hmm..lets have look at 1 Corinthians 6:14, as one example.

14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also.


And compare that with Galatians 1:19

19I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother.

GakuseiDon

Yes, I understand the distinction. No, I don't see the relevance. Who else in the LXX would an unqualified "Lord" refer to? But Paul clearly places himself as a servant of Jesus, who has been appointed "Son of God" by the resurrection, and

... being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord... (Phl 2:8-11)

Seems pretty clear to me. But I'll let you get back to the others.

Solo

There is no indication that Paul refers to a special group of people when he uses "brother" as a description of Timothy or Apollos. This is a pure fiction on your part and is supported by absolutely nothing in the text.

I have suggested-based on the obviously restrictive semantics of 1 Cor 9:5 - that "brother of the lord" was a designation of a high rank in James' assembly, an inner circle performing ceremonial and/or priestly functions. They might have been called officially "brothers in the service of the lord" (
οι αδελφοι εν τη διακονια του κυριου) which became "brothers of the lord" in the cultic idiom. There seems to be nothing that would indicate Paul used the term (in 1 Cor 9) to indicate kinship. The term as kinship designation would have been as absurd to James as it would have been to Paul.

Jiri

judge

No actually you haven't. This all happens inisde your head. All you have shown is that paul uses the term "brother" to refer to some people.

Then you jumped to the conclusion, that this must mean they were a rung above the ordinary believer.
It could just mean that paul was familar with them and had an affection for them, and so called them brother.
But this alternative doesn't suit you agenda, so you don't see it.

avi

Hi spin,
It is not terribly easy to find this passage on the internet.

Here are two references with a different text. Is it possible that they, or you, or both, have employed one of the REVISED, (redacted, post-christian) versions of the Septuagint?

I have no idea whether either of these two references, cited below, are based upon the "original" (prechristian) version of the Septuagint, or not. Perhaps your version, spin, corresponds to the original Septuagint, again I don't know. I also don't know where the "original" version of the Septuagint is found, perhaps B?

What is peculiar, to my way of thinking, is that κυριος appears ONLY ONCE in both of these two citations below.....

Unless, of course, I have misunderstood the text, is "kardia", καρδια , a synonym for kurios? Is it a reflection of some ancient, 1600 year old confusion about this same problem of interpreting κυριος?


http://www.kalvesmaki.com/lxx/

Ps 110:1
ALLHLOUIA I ALLHLOUIA
E)COMOLOGH/SOMAI/ VF FMI1S O(MOLOGE/W E)K
SOI RP DS SU/
KU/RIE N2 VSM KU/RIOS
E)N P E)N
O(/LH| A1 DSF O(/LOS
KARDI/A| N1A DSF KARDI/A
MOU RP GS E)GW/
E)N P E)N
BOULH=| N1 DSF BOULH/
EU)QEI/WN A3U GPF EU)QU/S
KAI\ C KAI/
SUNAGWGH=| N1 DSF SUNAGWGH/


http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/19_110.htm

αλληλουια εξομολογησομαι σοι κυριε εν ολη καρδια μου εν βουλη ευθειων και συναγωγη

avi

show_no_mercy

In some versions of the LXX, there are some Psalms missing. In this case, the quote in question is in your links' Psalm 109.



It should be pretty easy to figure out what "kardia" means, even if you don't know Greek. What scientific word does it sound like?

spin

Explain the use of brother in the instances I referred to.

I agree that it's probable that the "brothers of the lord" was a respected group of believers. The relation of brother and lord may not have been grammatically commutative: based on the examples I gave, "Stan, the brother of the cross" /=> "the cross, the brother of Stan", whereas "Stan, the brother of Dan" => "Dan, the brother of Stan". The non-commutative structure hides information, presumably because the full relationship is subliminated. The suggestion that it is an abbreviated for becomes quite possible in such circumstances.


spin

Solo

It is worth recalling that the 'Templars' ('les templiers') did not start as the 'Knights Templar' (les chevaliers du temple) but as the Order of Poor Knights of Christ at the Temple of Solomon (L'ordre des pauvres chevaliers du Christ et du temple de Salomon).

Jiri