Gamera

Such is the basic premise of the Hebrew scriptures. It is not true for the Christian scriptures, where homosexuality is never mentioned directly, and even the veiled references are ambiguous.

Christianity clearly denounced "loveless" relationships, since after the OT law was done away with, it was replaced by Jesus' admonition to love one another. So exploitative sex is contrary to Christian teaching. Whether homosexual sex is per se exploitative is a case that somebody would have to make, and I think it would be a hard case to make.

Solo

Nothing veiled or ambiguous, or lacking context, about Romans 1:26-27, is there ?

Jiri

Johnny Skeptic

You argued homosexuality at length from a secular viewpoint. Don't you remember bringing up NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association)? You brought up NAMBLA as a bogus attempt to correlate homosexuality with pedophilia. Consider the following from that thread:

But in one of your previous posts you said:

Now which is it? You can’t have it both ways.

Regarding “homosexuals……..prey on, and abuse, children,” first of all, some heterosexuals abuse children too, so your objection to abusing children does not apply specifically to homosexuals. What I wanted from you were objections that specifically apply to homosexuals. Second of all, the following organizations and individuals would never support homosexuals if the typical homosexual endorsed have sex with children:

The American Psychological Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Anthropological Association, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychoanalytic Association, the American Association Marriage and Family Therapy, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, Martin Luther King's widow Coretta Scott King, Rev. Dr. James Lawson, a distinguished United Methodist pastor who worked with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. to train the young people who staged the lunch counter sit-ins and Freedom Rides, Rev. Dr. Lewis Smedes, Biblical scholar, teacher, and author for over fifty years, the National Association of Social Workers, the Child Welfare League of America, the American Academy of Family Physicians, the North American Council on Adoptable Children, the American School Counselor Association, and the American Bar Association.

That is a separate issue entirely. You might as well say let’s get rid of all heteros and homos who commit murder and theft. Do you see how ridiculous your argument is? This thread is not about heteros and homos. It is about homos. Please stay on topic. What I am asking for is arguments that apply specifically to homosexuals.

Which has what to do with the views of typical homosexuals regarding having sex with children? You should know better than to attempt to establish a correlation between the preferences of a small percentage of gay men and the preferences of the vast majority of gay men. Would you like to assert that a sizeable percentage of gay men endorse having sex with children? If so, where is your documented evidence?

End of quotes

Now then, rhutchin, do you still say "From my memory, it seems that we established that the only basis for saying that homosexuality is wrong is that which the Bible says. If establishing that which the Bible says is a defeat, then I guess that makes defeat a victory"?

In that same thread, you made a desperate, vicious, and uncorroborated attempt to indict the character and integrity of non-Christians with the following:

End of quotes

May I ask what evidence you have that the average non-Christian is not a decent person? Are you not aware that some non-Christian police officers would be willing to risk their lives to save your life? Let's get something straight: Do you or do you not believe that some of the most loving, kind, compassionate, and moral people in the world are non-Christians?

In case you are wondering how I found those posts, I keep all of my debates with you as Microsoft Word files.

Are you aware that pedophiles are rarely female? Consider the following:

http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS02E3

Pedophiles are invariably males: Almost all sex crimes against children are committed by men.

Johnny: That was from a Christian web site.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/wo.pdf

Violent crimes committed by males and females

1993-1997

Sexual assault

Percentage of female offenders - 2%

Johnny: Obviously, of that 2%, lesbians comprised a much smaller percentage.

At
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/Rainbo...lestation.html, readers will find an informative article by Gregory M. Herek, Ph.D. The article is titled Facts About Homosexuality and Child Molestation. Herek adequately dispels the myth that a significantly disportionate percentage of homosexuals molest children.

Herek’s impressive bio can be read at

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/bio.html.

What were my claims, and what were your claims? My claim is that there is not any empirical evidence at all that there is a necessary correlation between homosexuality and poor physical and mental health. Every professional major medical and mental health organization in the U.S. supports homosexuals. So does the American Anthropological Association.

I did not say "proof". I said "any evidence". What evidence do you have that the writers spoke for God and not for themselves?

Have you given up in the thread on 2 Peter 3:9. You have not replied to a number of my most recent arguments. Would you like to have a formal debate with me about the nature of God?

Angra Mainyu

As pointed out, marriage isn’t always understood in the Bible as it is today.
That aside, the passage quoted in the first post doesn’t only say that homosexuality is wrong; it actually says that people who has homosexual relationships shall be put to death.


“not be allowed into heaven” seems to be another way of saying that they will be sent to Hell, where they will be tortured for the rest of their eternal existences. In addition, there seems to be an implicit claim that that would be not be an atrocity committed by God.

However, I would not say that there’s an “understanding” of any of that. Many people don’t have such beliefs.
However, society doesn’t have to consider something to be wrong only because the Bible says so. Society doesn’t have to assume the correctness of a book that claims that an eternal torturer exists and is good.


Could you explain how is the Bible's (or some Christians') claim evidence of biblical inerrancy?

Is the claim made by Muslims that the Quran is inerrant, evidence that it’s inerrant?

Is any claim on a book that said book is inerrant, evidence of inerrancy?

Perhaps, a definition of “evidence” would be needed, as this might be a semantic issue…

rhutchin

Certainly, the Bible refers to activities that are consistent with homosexuality and condemns those practices (i.e., You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.) even if people dispute whether it refers to the term, "homosexuality."

The deciding point is not whether the relationship is "loving." A "loving" relationship that is a homosexual relationship would not be right and can be called a sinful relationship.

rhutchin

I agree. That which the Bible describes as marriage is one thing. That which society describes as marriage can be something else.

Within the Jewish society governed by God, homosexuality is as serious a sin as murder and both are given the death penalty.

Actually, “not be allowed into heaven” is the idea that a person’s sin has essentially placed them in hell and there is a need to escape that situation. People are not sent to hell; people are left in hell. A person may think that hell is an atrocity, their failure to try to escape it would seem to mean that they do not object to it.

I agree that many people do not believe that which the Bible says about hell.

I agree. People are free to listen to society and God is free to hold people accountable for doing so.

rhutchin

Go with the above comment that I made above.

aperfectstranger

At least you're consistently inconsistent. Like the god you worship.

Roger Pearse

What vice could not be promoted on such grounds?

The complaint appears to be that Christianity fails to adopt the vices chosen as a shibboleth by those in power in a particular culture at a particular date. Indeed so.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Clivedurdle

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...922480,00.html