Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Lola · 07-13-2005, 10:56 AM

Thanks for the link, Sven! :thumbs: It's a very good article, but rather lengthy, and I have doubts that JLY will read it. I pulled the below paragraphs out since it seemed germane to your discussion.

Quote:

It was very obvious that many, in fact most, people had to be mistaken about what "God's will" is since there were so many incompatible views. I realized that as sure as I had been in the past of God working in my life, other people were just as sure that God, or other gods, was/were working in their lives, but in ways that contradicted what I thought God was telling me. It was very obvious that many people had conflicting and contradictory views about God's will about what God wanted and about how God was working in their lives, or even about who God was (or who the gods were).

And I realized that their conflicting certainties were just as certain to them as my certainties were to me; further, there was no objective, reliable way to determine who was right. If mine were the only form of the only religion that really changed lives, my own testimony would give me something to go on, it would add weight to my understanding of my experiences. But that clearly was not the case: I could not deny that others had been changed, and often changed radically, by their beliefs in their different versions of the Christian God or even other religions and gods. I had met such people, I lived in dorms with them, I had gotten to know them, and I could not deny what their religions had done in their lives. I could, as I had before, appeal to the Bible, but since so many different Christians have such different interpretations and understandings of the Bible, that just extended the problem.

The Bible is supposed to be the guidebook and touchstone of the faith, the objective standard of God's Truth, the standard by which understandings and interpretations of God's will are to be measured. Yet it suffered from the same problems of having to understand and interpret it as does God's alleged will. Christians of different types interpreted the Bible in conflicting ways, each group just as sure that their interpretation is the right one. Besides, other people viewed, and were inspired and changed by other sets of scriptures that did nothing for me, while my set of scriptures did nothing for them. My certainties, I reluctantly had to admit, were not necessarily all that certain.

If you go into any Bible book store, you will find a great many books on how to "hear" from god, how to pray according to god's will, why we doubt god, why don't we understand what god's will is, etc. Why is that? Obviously, Christians are not certain when they read their bible about "god's plan" for their life. I read many of these books and was always left very dissatisfied. As you'd expect, many of these books were so simple-minded and filled with such fluff. There were no facts--just a bunch of rhetoric appealing to the emotionally down-trodden.

Worldtraveller · 07-13-2005, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lola

If you go into any Bible book store, you will find a great many books on how to "hear" from god, how to pray according to god's will, why we doubt god, why don't we understand what god's will is, etc. Why is that?

Or my favorite:

"Christianity for Dummies"

I kid you not, it exists, and I've seen it. I laughed for a good 10 minutes when I did too.

Cheers,
Lane

Yahzi · 07-13-2005, 12:42 PM

My favorite part (emphasis added):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendall Hobbs

Yes, "good" and "bad" are real. And yes, morality is real. And there are at least some objective elements to morality, there is an at least partially objective basis for moral decisions. There are real standards of behavior, there is at least some agreement to what these standards are, and we recognize these facts. But this does not mean that morality is absolute, unchanging, and dependent on God. It is due to the fact that we are one sort of being and not another. Correspondingly, there are some things that are good for us, that benefit us and contribute to our well being, and other things that harm us.

It really is a very nice article.

Classical · 07-13-2005, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worldtraveller

Cheers,
Lane

I'm just curious. Are you lifting and sipping an evil "spirit" every time you end your posts with a "cheers?"

I certainly hope not. "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging. Whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." PROVERBS 20:1

:devil3: :rolling:

Biff the unclean · 07-13-2005, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWD

A bit more pleasant. So you live in a house where the roof leaked everytime it rained or snowed, in three different places?

No, I have a pleasant little house on the San Franciscio peninsula...it doesn't snow here. I keep it in good repair. You see I DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS SO I DON'T FOLLOW HIS TEACHINGS WHICH I CONSIDER TO BE STUPID. You claim you DO believe in Jesus yet you behave just as I do. The only difference is that when you read of Jesus being a dumb ass you claim he was talking to someone else and didn't have you in mind. Then to hide the fact that you are not doing what Jesus would do because you know better than Jesus. You pretend some Holy Ghost visits you like you were Scrooge on Christmas eve.

You wanna spend your money on a boat, great. It's your money, you came by it honestly. I hope you have a wonderful time sailing around. You keep responding like I'm condemning you for having a little fun. I'm not, I'm happy for you.

Jesus condemns you, not me.

Quote:

Jesus was calling the disciples to follow Him going from town to town,(first missionaries)to spread the word. I have not been called to do that.

Then why did you go to all the trouble to find the IIDB, register and then post all of your posts "spreading the word?" If that's not what you have been "called" to do why the heck are you doing it?

I'm asking questions because even though you have said repeatedly said you were going you are not only still here, you are here under several user names.

Quote:

You can read the scriptures any way you want, but again, that is not how I see them when you put everything in context.

I have no trouble reading. When you put scriptures in context, and then into the greater context of the bible as a whole well then you are damned, poor baby.

Quote:

Have a good life.

I have had a great life (I'm pretty old). A life free of superstition is more wonderful than you can ever imagine. Have a good time after you are dead, give my regards to your ghost ... holy or whatever

Worldtraveller · 07-14-2005, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Classical

I'm just curious. Are you lifting and sipping an evil "spirit" every time you end your posts with a "cheers?"

I certainly hope not. "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging. Whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." PROVERBS 20:1

:devil3: :rolling:

Nah, I'm practically a teetotaller. It's just something I picked up when I lived in Europe. I end phone conversations the same way about half the time.

Cheers,
Lane

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