jonesg

Hi, I could make a list 3 miles long of the names of all the dogs I can't hear barking.

Hence, no dogs bark.

lpetrich

I disagree with Bede on this one, and I find Iasion's approach commendable, though I would be more cautious than he has been.

I'd look mainly at Philo and Josephus, since they had reported on Palestine around 30 CE. But both of them have negative evidence:

* Philo was interested in eccentric Jewish sects, and he would certainly have been interested in Jesus Christ and his early followers. But he makes no mention of them.

* Josephus discussed several self-styled prophets, like Theudas and "The Egyptian"; JC fits into that category. But aside from a few controversial paragraphs, Josephus does not mention JC.

If we are to believe the Gospels, JC's crucifixion was accompanied by spectacular miracles:

* Three hours of mysterious darkness
* An earthquake
* Corpses taking walks outside of their tombs

This combination event would have been very notable if it had happened, and notable not only to Philo and Josephus. Pliny the Elder would have been very willing to record it in his Natural History, a book filled with similar marvels, and the same could be said of other more-distant historians.

Furthermore, if that mysterious darkness had been present over an area much larger than the Jerusalem neighborhood, it would have been seen by many others. Other historians, like Pliny the Elder, would certainly have noted it; Pliny himself was around 10 years old at the time, and he could have found out about it from his elders.

And that mysterious darkness was likely not clouds, because Jerusalem weather is usually clear at the time of year when it allegedly happened.

So if there was a historical Jesus Christ, he would have been much more obscure than the Gospels make him out to be.

And as to Paul:
* He wandered around
* He was not followed around by big crowds of admirers
* He did not work lots of miracles
* He did not attract the attention of the authorities as much

With the possible exception of having provoked the silversmiths of Ephesus by denying Artemis. It might be interesting if some notable historian had been around Ephesus around 30 CE or so.

JoyJuice

In addition with the tearing of the Temple curtain.

Lucretius

Interesting list what amazes me is the number of those authors I have actually read something like 70% to 80 %

Roger Pearse

The citation given from Photius is a misleading one, of uncertain origin. Photius' work consists of a series of reviews of books he had read, many now lost. It has never been completely translated into English. What there is is mostly here.

Codex 23 discusses Justus. Here is the full comment in the translation of J.H.Freese.

XXIII. Read the Chronicle of Justus of Tiberias, entitled A Chronicle of the Kings of the Jews in the form of a genealogy, by Justus of Tiberias. He came from Tiberias in Galilee, from which he took his name. He begins his history with Moses and carries it down to the death of the seventh Agrippa of the family of Herod and the last of the Kings of the Jews. His kingdom, which was bestowed upon him by Claudius, was extended by Nero, and still more by Vespasian. He died in the third year of Trajan, when the history ends. Justus' style is very concise and he omits a great deal that is of utmost importance. Suffering from the common fault of the Jews, to which race he belonged, he does not even mention the coming of Christ, the events of his life, or the miracles performed by Him. His father was a Jew named Pistus; Justus himself, according to Josephus, was one of the most abandoned of men, a slave to vice and greed. He was a political opponent of Josephus, against whom he is said to have concocted several plots; but Josephus, although on several occasions he had his enemy in his power, only chastised him with words and let him go free. It is said that the history which he wrote is in great part fictitious, especially where he describes the Judaeo-Roman war and the capture of Jerusalem.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Steven Carr

Why is it not surprising that he does not mention God the Son, who came to Earth, and worked miracles that had never been seen before, and attracted such attention that vast crowds came to see him, and kings wanted to see him?

leonarde

Partial post:That Jesus was "God the Son" "who came to Earth" is a faith statement (ie an explicitly Christian statement of faith). So what you are truly asking is 'Why is it not surprising that Philo wasn't a Christian?' . But if he HAD BEEN a Christian, non-believers would write off his (posited)(written) testimony as just so much propaganda/myth/fiction.....just like the Gospels themselves...

Amaleq13

The silence only serves to reinforce the notion that the Gospel depiction of Jesus cannot be considered a record of history.

Would we expect anyone to have mentioned a prophet from the sticks who wandered into the big city with a group of his bumpkin followers and somehow managed to get himself executed as a seditionist?

rlogan

That there was someone who wrote epistles under that name, and that others were falsely attributed to the same individual is not in doubt. The Christian representation of Paul is certainly in doubt.


gosh Bede. This appears to be an attempt at making Paul seem like the larger than life giant and Jesus just the alter boy shining his shoes.


Once we reject the HJ, the scales fall from our eyes and we can drop the whole set of aposltes, mary, joseph, and etc.

A much more powerful explanatory paradigm emerges in which a post-diaspora hellanized social mixmaster produces mystery savior cults that coalesce ultimately under a Historical Jesus innovation. Sure, some personage calling himself Paul wrote letters. But he was no miracle worker speaking before the multitudes. Not a savior.

It is a nonsequitor to say that he created a big splash when by observation he did not. That is, since he was not written of I conclude he did not create the splash you are trying to imply.

GakuseiDon

JP Holding has updated his article on the Remsburg list to include a rather lengthy reply to Iasion's new list:

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/remslist.html

(His comments on Iasion's list start about a third of the way down on the webpage).